Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

i'm inspired to quote my vicar with regards to the parlous state of anglican church politics atm...justabout, MP et al...your views?

63 replies

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 14:30

His latest editorial in our church magazine is worth, I beleive quoting in full (I've missed out identifying bits for me not him!). I think that although it is long it is worth quoting as I agree so utterly wholeheartedly with it, and would be interested in your take:

"In our quiet corner of --- we rarely experience the ructions that seem to be churning the national life of our church. We say our prayers, gather for worship, pay attention to one another and seek to do service in our local community. Not very dramatic: not, apparently, terribly engaged with the big issues. But, of course, we do think about them. I, for one, certainly have views. I will not be accepting the Pope's kind offer to go and be part of a sub denomination within the Catholic corral, I will not be seeking alternative Episcopal oversight from the Bishop of New Jersey if the Synod of the Church of England is stupid enough to prevaricate further over women bishops, and I will not be seeking to take legal possession of our church building so I can exercise an aggressive brand of evangelical self-righteousness.

No. Instead, I will invite the parish to Christmas services, encourage more of us to find time for stillness and relection, go on reminding people that God is close to them and loves them...think about whether the church hall is up to the job we want to do with our buildings and hope at the end of it all that the church hasn't blown my pension on a shopping centre in Reykjavik. IN so doing I don't think that I'm being an ostrich. I'm not running away from important issues. I think I'm just getting better at identifying what the important issues are. I'm pretty sure these days that it really doesn't matter whether my vicar is gay or straight: whether my Bishop is Brian or Margaret; whether I think the first chpaters of the gospel of Luke might have been added into the text later than the rest of it.

It does I think matter very much whether or not my vicar is bothered about the people he or she is called to serve. By which, I would generally mean, the poorest in our society, the alienated, Persecuted and marginalised. I do think it matters if my male or female bishop is boring, selfserving or forgetting to be Christ-like. I do think it matters if we forget who Jesus was and what he did. I do think it matters if what we do in the church puts people off or treats them as if they were stupid.

Are the Anglo-Catholic boys club brigade hurt? Well, off you go to papa then. Are the evangelicals cross because we don't use the bible like a rule-book? Well feel free to be cross: it seems to be what you do best. Are the liberals chewing the carpet because the church is so paralysed with fear and anxiety? And, let's face it, we liberals ARE exasperated. Well we should get a sense of perspective and start to play the long game God does.

As another year turns, three cheers for those bits of the church that just get on with it. The big issues that really matter are the homeless down on -- Rd, the trapped old ladies in their flats on -- Street , the children who go home to loveless, cold homes and the struggling families flattened by mortgage payments and uncertain job prospects. Too many of those engaged in 'church-wars' have forgotten who and what they are in the church for. We need to remember. Once we come back to the way Jesus did things then we will have remembered what it means to the the church for England and will be much more likely to be a positive force in the world."

OP posts:
Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 14:31

sorry it's so long, it's taken me ages to type out!

OP posts:
neenz · 17/01/2010 14:39

Amen!

I totally agree that there is too much emphasis on gay people and women in the church. What would Jesus do? He would love and accept everyone, and wouldn't bother with daft rituals which clog up the business of actually loving God, and which alienate people from the church, from God's love.

We should be more worried about how to spread the Word, not navel gazing and in-fighting.

The beauty of Jesus' message was that it was so simple: Love God, love each other. We have lost that in our society, where we value material things and our own wealth over sharing and equality and looking after the most vulnerable.

DutchOma · 17/01/2010 14:41

Amen to that sister.

JollyPirate · 17/01/2010 14:47

... and another "Amen to that" from me too. Brilliant.

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 14:49

it is good isn't it. i think there is a sense of a simmer of righteous anger that for me is very christ like in the piece.

OP posts:
MrsCadwallader · 17/01/2010 14:54

I love it when someone else puts my own thoughts into their words!

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 14:58

i think this is where rowan williams has it wrong (bless him). let them go! let them go to rome where there are no women with power in the church. let them go to some evangelical nightmare zone where the christian equivalent of sharia law reigns. the strength of the anglican church is in it's inclusive liberalism: if some are SO very unhappy with this, then perhaps they regretfully need to leave.

i think the fear of this does paralyse the anglican leadership, when in fact, it has far far more important things to worry about: poverty, global warming, war, famine etc.

OP posts:
pofarced · 17/01/2010 14:59

What a wonderful vicar you have sophable. Absolutely the righteous though quiet anger of Christ.

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 15:00

it took a long time to find a church i really felt i could be a part of and i am so grateful that I have. it is a fantastic mix of modern and high church, all of the beauty of tradition decorating a liberal heart.

OP posts:
pofarced · 17/01/2010 15:01

Rowan Williams is a HUGE disappointment. He has spent his whole time in office trying to yoke together disparate groups under the Anglican banner and thus rendered the whole organisation as morally bland and confused. He should have taken a direction, led by example, with courage.

pofarced · 17/01/2010 15:03

wish I could find a church like that soph.

abdnhikinginawinterwonderland · 17/01/2010 15:05

that's lovely! thank you for sharing this!

MmeBlueberry · 17/01/2010 15:08

That article is equally judgmental of the parts of the church it doesn't belong to.

What is important is to have a balance and Anglicanism is fortunate to have rich traditions and heritage. The three wings of the church are important - catholic, liberal and evangelical. The trick is to incorporate all three into worship and mission.

There is no point in trying to 'spread the word' if the word is diluted and changed to suit modern society. It is important to communicate in modern terms, but not to change the nature of the Christian faith.

We live in a broken world, and are called to love one another, even those that are difficult to love. But loving someone often calls for their lives to be transformed, and that's what we should be seeking to do. It does not mean accepting an 'anything goes' sense of tolerance.

As for the big news issues, I will leave that up to the academics to battle out. I can see arguments on both sides. They don't affect my little mission-shaped corner.

TheProvincialLady · 17/01/2010 15:10

Superb. Thanks for posting this.

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 15:15

i have to disagree mdme blueberry: excluding women and gay people from positions of authority in the church is a political stance masquerading as religious. As has been pointed out, jesus was very very thin on dogma.

the sections of the church that are destroying it are NOT able to integrate: they are seeking to split the church and rather than be split surely better to allow their departure? no one in the anglican communion is saying 'you may not let your view be known'. but rather those hate-filled segments are saying 'if you allow this we will destroy the church'.

OP posts:
MmeBlueberry · 17/01/2010 15:22

I struggle to get excited by threats to destroy the church.

In my parish, our church would survive. We'd even have more money to spend because we would be freed from the parish share. We work far more closely with our neighbour churches (United, RC, Methodist, Anglican and free) than we do with our diocese.

Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

The worst thing for the Anglican Communion in relatively recent times has been the rise in liberalism. People like to know where they stand, and lack of sound doctrine has made many people feel that Christianity is irrelevent and untrue, and that they prefer to go shopping on Sundays.

(I don't have a problem with women in authority, btw, but I also think there are plenty of places for women to serve. In fact, in most churches, it is women who run them).

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 15:27

i am liberal and know exactly where I stand!

liberalism is not and should not be considered a euphemism for wooly mindedness.

OP posts:
justabout · 17/01/2010 15:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 15:32

"Jesus' teaching, incarnated in his life, in which he identified with the poor and marginalized, stands before us as a perpetual challenge, and part of the challenge is that we have to work out for ourselves what love of neighbour means in our own chaotic and bewildering age, and practice it - but, I am suggesting, without concealing it any longer from the world behind a sacred screen of outdated and untenable dogmas."

i'm with john hicks on this.

the christian message is as radical and huge as you could want. love your neighbour as you would love yourself. there it is. too much for most of us to practice most of the time.

OP posts:
Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 15:32

oh justabout i am sorry to hear that

OP posts:
MmeBlueberry · 17/01/2010 15:33

You might know where you stand, but those who are seeking something more in their lives probably do not.

It doesn't help when the media gets their teeth into stories of what liberal bishops don't believe.

MmeBlueberry · 17/01/2010 15:36

I suppose it begs the question, "what is love?"

Easy to say, harder to define or put into practice.

pofarced · 17/01/2010 15:57

'The worst thing for the Anglican Communion in relatively recent times has been the rise in liberalism. People like to know where they stand, and lack of sound doctrine has made many people feel that Christianity is irrelevent and untrue, and that they prefer to go shopping on Sundays.'

I don't think it is a rise in liberalism for liberalism's sake. It is a questioning of entrenched doctrine that has very little to do with Christ and a return to the revolutionary central tenets of Christ's teachings- equality, social justice and the power of unconditional love and forgiveness. And thank God for that.

MmeBlueberry · 17/01/2010 16:01

What entrenched doctrine?

And how can you stand up for Christ's teachings if you are little more than a laughing stock?

pofarced · 17/01/2010 16:15

Do you know anything about the history of the church in the West MmeBlueberry? and what do yo mean by laughing stock?

If you mean bigots and those that believe in creationism laugh at those who stick to Christ's actual teachings, then laugh away.