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i'm inspired to quote my vicar with regards to the parlous state of anglican church politics atm...justabout, MP et al...your views?

63 replies

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 14:30

His latest editorial in our church magazine is worth, I beleive quoting in full (I've missed out identifying bits for me not him!). I think that although it is long it is worth quoting as I agree so utterly wholeheartedly with it, and would be interested in your take:

"In our quiet corner of --- we rarely experience the ructions that seem to be churning the national life of our church. We say our prayers, gather for worship, pay attention to one another and seek to do service in our local community. Not very dramatic: not, apparently, terribly engaged with the big issues. But, of course, we do think about them. I, for one, certainly have views. I will not be accepting the Pope's kind offer to go and be part of a sub denomination within the Catholic corral, I will not be seeking alternative Episcopal oversight from the Bishop of New Jersey if the Synod of the Church of England is stupid enough to prevaricate further over women bishops, and I will not be seeking to take legal possession of our church building so I can exercise an aggressive brand of evangelical self-righteousness.

No. Instead, I will invite the parish to Christmas services, encourage more of us to find time for stillness and relection, go on reminding people that God is close to them and loves them...think about whether the church hall is up to the job we want to do with our buildings and hope at the end of it all that the church hasn't blown my pension on a shopping centre in Reykjavik. IN so doing I don't think that I'm being an ostrich. I'm not running away from important issues. I think I'm just getting better at identifying what the important issues are. I'm pretty sure these days that it really doesn't matter whether my vicar is gay or straight: whether my Bishop is Brian or Margaret; whether I think the first chpaters of the gospel of Luke might have been added into the text later than the rest of it.

It does I think matter very much whether or not my vicar is bothered about the people he or she is called to serve. By which, I would generally mean, the poorest in our society, the alienated, Persecuted and marginalised. I do think it matters if my male or female bishop is boring, selfserving or forgetting to be Christ-like. I do think it matters if we forget who Jesus was and what he did. I do think it matters if what we do in the church puts people off or treats them as if they were stupid.

Are the Anglo-Catholic boys club brigade hurt? Well, off you go to papa then. Are the evangelicals cross because we don't use the bible like a rule-book? Well feel free to be cross: it seems to be what you do best. Are the liberals chewing the carpet because the church is so paralysed with fear and anxiety? And, let's face it, we liberals ARE exasperated. Well we should get a sense of perspective and start to play the long game God does.

As another year turns, three cheers for those bits of the church that just get on with it. The big issues that really matter are the homeless down on -- Rd, the trapped old ladies in their flats on -- Street , the children who go home to loveless, cold homes and the struggling families flattened by mortgage payments and uncertain job prospects. Too many of those engaged in 'church-wars' have forgotten who and what they are in the church for. We need to remember. Once we come back to the way Jesus did things then we will have remembered what it means to the the church for England and will be much more likely to be a positive force in the world."

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Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 20:07

mp: would you look at your successful, happy, comfortable child and berate them internally for it? no. would you try to guide them to use what they have for the good of others? yes.

it's the same isn't it?

you wouldn't rant at your girls bitterly saying how could they have so much...you'd be happy for them, and relish and enjoy with them their enjoyment of life...

Jesus Christ said-
?I came that they may have life, and have it abundantly.?

JOHN 10:10b

corblimey i never had you down as calvinist guilt woman!!!

jesus loves a hedonist if they are coming from the right place (rare)! loves his children living their lives to the absolute fullest enjoying every moment and wringing as much from each day as possible.

thing is, that when you realise how much absolute satisfaction and pleasure there is in gifting others with what they need, then you have a recipe for love transmission on a grand scale. it is so sad that so few of us even glimpse that in our lives.

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MmeBlueberry · 17/01/2010 20:51

John Wesley, Anglican priest and founder of the Methodist movement, said, "earn as much as you can, save as much as you can, give as much as you can" (or words to that effect).

We are duty bound to use our God-given intellect or physique to work as hard as we can to earn what we are capable of. After that we must use these riches both prudently and generously.

There is nothing wrong with earning a lot of money. If we are capable of it, then we should - and then we should use it for the greater good.

Time and talent only goes so far in mission work. At some point, hard cash is what is needed. And the last thing we need is piety.

morningpaper · 17/01/2010 21:05

mp: would you look at your successful, happy, comfortable child and berate them internally for it

Not but if I looked at (a) comfortable successful child etc. and then saw her bugger off the spend £10 at the cinema while (b) poor starving child died of a disease that could haev been prevented for 30p, I might be a leetle pissed off

MmeBlueberry · 17/01/2010 21:11

My DD tithes her pocket money and babysitting money to Tearfund. Is that OK, mp?

She does it willingly and understands why, but it is a lot to expect more from a child.

Maybe as she gets older, she can dress in sackcloth and ashes.

Heathcliffscathy · 17/01/2010 22:18

bit uncalled for mdmeblueberry...

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HallelujahHeisBorntoMary · 18/01/2010 07:20

On the face of it, it seems very good, but there is an element of "I thank you God that I'm not like those other Christians". I hope that's not true. Its certainly oversimplistic. The Anglican church is a church of sinners as well as saints, and saying "if you don't like it, tough" is pretty damning.

Sorry, you asked what we thought...

pofarced · 18/01/2010 09:09

Christ's teachings are not simple at all. They are incredibly difficult to live by. They do not sit well with a Capitalist society for a start. Anyway, I find little point arguing with Christians who claim earthquakes and other tragedies are an 'act of God'

Heathcliffscathy · 18/01/2010 09:16

but that's not what is happening is it?

the liberal anglicans aren't arguing that those that are against women in the priesthood or gay to be cast out! it is the other way round. those that find the idea of a female or gay vicar or bishop detestable are threatening the most extreme actions: splitting off from the anglican communion, becoming catholic (not that extreme that one granted), taking possession of their churches etc etc.

it's all just such a waste of energy and imo unbelievably un-christlike!

jesus was a rabbi that had an ex prostitute as his close confidante (at the least). do you think he would bat an eyelid at women or gay bishops? as i've said below, i doubt he'd be very impressed with the politicised, authoritarian church full stop.

quite apart from the fact that the piece argues that the liberals should get a grip too!

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wilbur · 18/01/2010 09:36

That's a wonderful piece by your vicar sophable, and clearly has provoked an interesting debate. I am doing some research about liberal vicars at the moment for something I am writing (have just finished an interesting book from the 60s called Soho is my Parish - great reminder of both how far we have come and also that there have always been liberal voices out there) and I am going to add your vicar's words to my stack of info.

Agree wholeheartedly about keeping going at a local level and not expending all energies on these huge questions. A bit like "the personal is political" - or rather "the local is universal". And that's not to say there won't be room for help to be extended to Haiti or similar.

neenz · 18/01/2010 18:04

'I think while any christian has more cushions/cars/clothes than they need while ignoring the plight of others' suffering then we are in DEEP SHIT WITH THE ALMIGHTY'

Couldn't agree more, MP. Of course there is nothing wrong with working hard and being successful, in fact it is great because you can more afford to give more of your money away. Tithing when you earn £30k a year is a lot harder than when you earn £100k. It's dead easy to give away £10k a year when you have £90k left over afterwards.

Sophable, totally agree that Jesus would despair at the hierarchical way the church has evolved. It does bother me that so much of what our church collects through donations disappears into the ether of the diocese in the parish share. Does all that money really need to be used the way it is being used at the moment? Could the church be streamlined so that more money is diverted to those that need it most? Or for mission work? And yes I agree anyone who is bothering themselves with women or gay clergy is not using their energy the way God would want.

I watched an interesting programme about God and the tsunami recently and it said without a crust that moves ie causing earthquakes, there could be no life on Earth. So earthquakes are inevitable, it's how we deal with them that is important. I hope a brighter and better Haiti rises from the dust... those people deserve it.

I was so happy to hear £23m has been donated by Brits to the Haiti appeal so far.

abdnhikinginawinterwonderland · 18/01/2010 21:21

neenz, pofaced etc. This is a bit of an aside but when the boxing day tsunami happened I was really upset by my church's official (ie national) response to it and ended up speaking during a service about it precisely because it didn't highlight that earthquakes/tsunamis are part of a larger picture that makes life possible. (It's all about the wave equation!!!). I think this is an area where Christians who happen to be scientists need to put ourselves forward more and share our knowledge.

MmeBlueberry · 18/01/2010 21:50

Some hierarchy is very biblical. There is a three-fold order of ministry - deacons, presbyters and bishops.

It is reasonable to have a diocesan staff to support the work of the parishes. Not many parishes are equipped to go it alone.

Some Anglicans look up to their bishops, and others just see bishops as people to be used.

The church hierarchy is technically the same as it has ever been - deacons/priests/bishops. The Archbishop of Canterbury actually has no authority outside of his own diocese, and the just as a regular bishop. Rural deans and archdeacons are purely administrative roles. A rural dean is usually one of the regular clergy on a rota basis, and from what I have seen of our archdeacons, they work tremendously hard and add value.

pofarced · 18/01/2010 22:07

I agree with you abdnhiking...

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