Two questions for Catholics.....

[Pinkfluffyslippers]

1. Does anyone believe in purgatory these days- if so just what is it? When I read about it I thought surely Catholics can't seriously believe that in the 21st Century it just seems so "mumbo jumbo".

2.Also what's the difference between Roman Catholic and catholic ?

BTW I was baptised a Catholic but someone forgot to give me the manual on what I'd been signed up for.......

Thanks in advance..

Most of the Roman Catholics I know in RL believe in purgatory.

'Roman Catholic' and 'Catholic' can be used interchangeably, but 'catholic' also means universal, most significantly in the creeds.

1. Roman Catholics I know (I was brought up one) believe in Purgatory too.

1. Roman Catholic and Catholic (big C) can be used interchangeably - Roman Catholics will generally call themselves Catholic, but other denominations might add the Roman, however many AngloCatholics (high church Anglicans) also call themselves Catholic.

And as Kay says, small c catholic means universal, as in the creed "I believe in one holy catholic..."

and you'd have been baptised a Christian, most probably by a Roman Catholic priest!

Hope this helps and doesn't confuse you more!

no one got a manual when they got baptised into any faith, afaik.

I did. Got a dinky little book with the liturgy and explanation of communion in it, among other things.

Purgatory is what holds Catholicism together.

Without it it's a hard sell being a Catholic. There is no guarantee of being saved as a Catholic - purgatory offers you a hope of getting into heaven.

Purgatory is where you are purged of sin. Most of us woudl, agree that there's some reward for good and punishment for bad in a just universe. The idea is this is where most of us will go. Only saints go to heaven, and only complete horrors to hell. What's mumbojumbo about that?

There is arguably no biblical justification for Purgatory. I used to believe in Purgatory and don't any more.

i believe in purgatory a lot more than i believe in hell. in fact i just assume that's where we all go, a sort of triage centre...

1. There is no biblical evidence for purgatory. It was made up by the church to explain where you go to when you die. It is thought that only the saints go to heaven, hell is obv reserved for bankers and the rest of us, well the church reckoned we must go somewhere so they coined the term 'purgatory'. But they admit fully the lack of evidence for this.

1. I believe the term 'catholic' was being used by High Anglicans therefore Roman Catholic is now used to describe Catholics whose head of the Church is the Pope and who follow the Vatican.

Observant catholics believe in purgatory as it is a doctrine of the catholic church. That is why catholics pray for the dead - ie the souls in purgatory who can no longer pray for themselves.

I think the biblical support for purgatory is one little phrase in one of the apocraphyl texts - which is why it was thrown out by the Reformers. It doesn't make sense in light of justification by faith.

I think purgatory can be a useful money-maker for the RCC

I actually find purgatory a bit of a comfort. If I was suddenly brought into the presence of God now, I would feel v unworthy and unprepared. I am sure that God is a loving God and would want to welcome me with arms open wide but I think I would be split between wanting to go and kneel before him and praise him and just a feeling of unworthiness. I like the idea of purgatory so I can prepare.
On the other hand, there is absolutely no scriptural basis for purgatory and if it doesn't exist, then so be it. A belief in purgatory is not the crux of my faith.
Don't know if I've explained that v well...

But rhubarb, why shouldn't theologians reason about eternity?

There isn't actually a huge amount of Biblical evidence for either Satan or hell either, as opposed to demons and places of punishment, but I never met a Protestant who didn't believe in them utterly.

'There is no guarantee of being saved as a Catholic - purgatory offers you a hope of getting into heaven.'

So believing that Jesus died to save our sins, that he is the way, the truth and the light, that we go to heaven through believing in him... catholics do not believe this, even though that is what Jesus said?

Purgatory is not biblical, Jesus never mentioned it... this is the problem I have with the Catholic church (that and the bit where unless you are a Catholic you won't go to heaven ).

My sins are forgiven here on earth, when I ask God for forgiveness. I don;t need to go anywhere after I die to be made right with God.

See, I don't get it. I mean, I understand the teaching well enough, and if it was just a little anteroom into the throne room or such, then it wouldn't be so bad.

But I think I dislike the idea because it's some kind of payment or punishment, which totally undermines the cross for me.

The analogy my catholic friends use is 'If you broke something of mine, I'd forgive you, but you'd still have to pay for it to be fixed'.

Which is all very well, but what would 'forgiveness' mean in that context? You'd have no hard feelings towards me, but you'd still expect payment in full for whatever it was? What if it was prohibitively expensive? What if I couldn't pay?

Surely the whole point of the cross is that we couldn't pay, so Christ paid for us. Purgatory just seems like it's saying "Yeah. well, Jesus' sacrifice was good, but not quite enough."

Sorry, not quite sure where that came from, I think it's probably on my mind this time of year for personal reasons.

neenztwinz - as a Catholic, I do not believe that only Catholics go to heaven and I have never spoken to a priest that does. I do believe that Jesus died to save us from our sins but - for me personally - it is my humanity and inadequacies that make me want a bit of preparation time.

AbbyLubber - you're right, there's not a great deal in Scripture about hell. Personally I see it as separation from God caused by actively turning your back on God.

(I love these discussion threads as everyone always has their own unique viewpoint - all of which are valid in their own way!)

This is a good thread.

I think if I was going to go straight into the presence of God I would be completely terrified. For me, purgatory might be a place of rest and spiritual cleansing. Like a spa for the soul.

abraid - that's kind of how I see it. I do know though that God would not want me to be terrified. My need for preparation is just that - my need, not His. I suppose, all I can do is to continue to try to further my personal relationship with Him so as I can become more in tune with Him and how He wants me to be whilst I am on this earth.
I guess I believe that God would want us all to be perfect really and that, in small ways, I know I fall short of that on a daily basis. Therefore, I would want to try and get prepared before being in His presence.
I guess for me purgatory is not about being separated from God, just as I am not separated from Him atm. He is still able to - and wants to - help me when I am there, if I ask.

did you get baptised as a baby or adult, kayharker.

I didn't knoe that the belief in purgatory was what held catholicism together. I'd think that a church as large and complex as this one had a lot more about it than purgatory but I suppose you live and learn.

I was an adult, foxy

Abby, you can theorise away, it's fine by me. But it's true to say that there is NO biblical evidence for Purgatory. In fact, neither the OT nor the NT really goes into any depth about what happens after you die. Although it is thought that once Jesus died, the gates of Heaven were opened - so where did you go until then?

Purgatory is thought of as a resting place.

Hell was mentioned by Jesus in the NT, I think it's Matthew where he mentions the wailing and gnashing of teeth and of people being in hell and looking up to see Abraham and Moses in the bosom of God. Although some people believe that the fiery furnace he describes related to a rubbish pit outside the city that smouldered

They even think that Hell is the core of the earth because of all the descriptions of hell being down, underground and in a fiery pit.

Heaven is always being described as a place that is above the clouds - upwards.

But logically, since only the best people can get into Heaven and only the very bad into Hell, then it is assumed there is another place where ordinary souls are in repose.

Neither did it say in the Bible that you could pray for dead souls. In fact praying for dead souls is largely a new phenomenon - it simply wasn't thought of in Jesus' time and certainly Jesus himself never mentioned praying for, or to, the dead.

It's bollocks to say it is what holds the church together.

Transubstantiation, the glory of saints and a belief in life everlasting are the main focus of the catholic church.

I think the idea of purgatory may have originally come from the fact that those who die before the 2nd coming actually go to Hades until the second coming.

Rhubarb, you are wrong, praying for the dead is from the Apocrypha, it is NOT a new phenomenon at all! 2 Maccabees 12 v46.

Also I think you do Roman Catholics a disservice with what you say is the main focus of the Catholic Church (for one thing, you forgot sex and contraception ).

Mary, look here, the catholic church doesn't recogise that as an official text of the Bible.

Yes I did forget the contraception bit didn't I?