Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Original poster

Two questions for Catholics.....

51 replies

Pinkfluffyslippers · 05/04/2009 20:26

  1. Does anyone believe in purgatory these days- if so just what is it? When I read about it I thought surely Catholics can't seriously believe that in the 21st Century it just seems so "mumbo jumbo".

2.Also what's the difference between Roman Catholic and catholic ?

BTW I was baptised a Catholic but someone forgot to give me the manual on what I'd been signed up for.......

Thanks in advance..

OP posts:
KayHarker · 06/04/2009 17:23

Well, it all rather depends on what you believe is being referred to in the Maccabees passage, and whether or not it's got any real relation to what the official doctrine of purgatory is all about.

I don't think it's a very clear passage on this issue.

Roobie · 06/04/2009 18:20

Scripture contains many references to the concept of temporal punishment for sin even after God has actually forgiven the sin. I can't quote these but can certainly look them up in due course.

neenztwinz · 06/04/2009 19:53

In the NT Roobie?

Higglepig · 06/04/2009 20:01

I've heard Purgatory described as being like waiting in the hallway and being able to hear the party going on inside but not yet being able to join in. I don't see it as a punishment as such more a time of preparation, as others have put it.

I've generally been pretty comfortable with the idea of Purgatory and have been brought up with it (as a Catholic). Having said that, I don't know of any scriptural references to it and that does, increasingly, pose a bit of a problem for me.

And FWIW, I've never heard a Catholic priest, or indeed, any Catholic say anything about non-Catholics not going to heaven !!

Higglepig · 06/04/2009 20:02

Sorry, my punctuation seems to have gone a bit astray there. Hope that last post made sense...

Spidermama · 06/04/2009 20:11

Wow! I didn't realise people actually, really and genuinely believe in this. I go to mass, DH is Catholic, I would regard myself as a seeker ... but I would never in a million years actually believe in purgatory, heaven or hell. Probably, having been brought up by athiests, I'll never cut it.

I love the religeon but tend to make it work for me, often in a symbolic sense. ei God is love, 'He' is the goodness in humanity, not an actual entity in his own right who sits in judgement and wants praise.

KayHarker · 06/04/2009 21:48

Roobie, please do. I find the concept slightly baffling.

Spidermama · 06/04/2009 21:57

I don't mean to be rude. I'm just genuinely surprised because the friends I've made, who go to mass regularly and would describe themselves as Catholics, don't believe in these things so literally.

Sorry if I came across as blunt or ignorant. I'm fascinated by faith and have a growing faith which I've never had before, but I'm really thrown by the realisation that some of you have a literal, actual belief in concepts like purgatory, heaven and hell.

Rhubarb · 06/04/2009 22:01

I don't spidermama. I know about them, as most catholics do, but it isn't quite the same as believing in them.

I believe in a place when you die. I find all those near death accounts to be very comforting. However did you know that some people have had hell-like near death experiences? You don't hear about those very much! I do believe that everyone will be judged when they die but as to where they end up, well no-one really comes back to say do they?

So I have an open mind on the issue.

bloss · 06/04/2009 22:10

Message withdrawn

MaryBS · 07/04/2009 08:19

Rhubarb, the RC church DOES recognise it as a canonical text, it is the reformed church which doesn't. And the doctrine had been around and part of formal teaching for a lot longer than that. The Council of Trent was just formalising it.

Kay, I quoted from Maccabees not for the discussion on purgatory, but on praying for the dead.

Rhubarb · 07/04/2009 09:04

Funny that Kay because it's not in my Bible.

bloss, catholics believe that to get into Heaven you have to be a saint or an innocent. Us mere mortals have to wait in Purgatory, possibly with a bit of suffering thrown in for good measure, until we are prayed for enough to have our sins forgiven and be admitted into Heaven.

Rhubarb · 07/04/2009 09:05

Sorry, not Kay, MaryBS!

neenztwinz · 07/04/2009 09:41

Is it not Catholic teaching that only those who are baptised can go to heaven?

Rhubarb · 07/04/2009 09:42

It was yes, I don't think it is now. That's why one of the first things they did when they had a baby was to baptise it.

I doubt very much this is still the case though.

neenztwinz · 07/04/2009 09:53

All is forgiven then

Tortington · 07/04/2009 09:56

i thought you were dead until judgement day

i'm catholic - am i wrong?

Higglepig · 07/04/2009 10:10

neentwinz/Rhubarb - there was some kind of woolly concept of limbo where unbaptised babies were meant to go but as far as I know that was a medieval invention and has been longsince abandoned by the Catholic church. At least I hope so...

Spidermama - appreciate that Purgatory is a bit of a weird one and a difficult concept to get your head around. It's one I'm familiar with and comfortable with from a theological perspective but not felt the need to 'believe' in or devote much attention to. But I think you'll find it's pretty common for Catholics (any Christians for that matter) to believe in an afterlife, whatever you envisage Heaven/Hell to be. Though I think that it can sometimes be misunderstood as being a 'reward' for living well.

And has for 'cutting it'- it's not like you have to qualify to be a member by having a strictly defined set of beliefs.

Rhubarb · 07/04/2009 10:12

Yeah custy, that's right, but where do you go when you've snuffed it? Assuming that you go anywhere?

I believe more than you're just asleep until judgement day. But then the church you see, will ne'er let the likes of us into Heaven, so they invent this place called Purgatory to stick us in.

Tortington · 07/04/2009 10:31

i thought you were just dead - until some great day of judgement when jesus comes again?

an i wrong?

KayHarker · 07/04/2009 10:45

Surely purgatory/praying for the dead is all rather bound up together, MaryBS? (Gosh, I know why you have BS in your name, but it does make me feel like I'm being very rude about your posts when I name you )

The Catholic Catechism now teaches that non-Catholic Christians are 'separated brethren', and part opf the church but without the 'fullness' of truth.

I believe it also teaches that God has mercy on anyone of another faith who follows that faith in sincerity. I know Mother Theresa believed that.

I'm not sure whether Trent is still in force in the bit about placing a curse on those who believe in salvation by faith apart from the works of the law. It all gets a bit confusing at this point (if it hasn't got that way loooong before...)

To get into heaven, you must be in a state of grace, but if you've still got residual venial sin knocking about, you need that paid for. Saints are them as have no mortal or venial sin when they die.

By performing penances and gaining indulgences, you can add to the treasury of merit which Christ put the biggest deposit in, basically, and it's this merit that gets applied to the souls in purgatory.

(This is how I understand it all, and I've had a chat with a Catholic pal this morning on the phone )

MaryBS · 07/04/2009 12:30

Its in my bible though Rhubarb, and I'm not even RC! When I looked at getting a NRSV bible, there were 3 options, one without Apocrypha, one with Apocrypha and one Catholic. The Catholic bible had the books of the Apocrypha in their "place" in the old/new testaments. The one "with Apocrypha" (the one I have) separated them out and placed them between OT/NT.

Actually praying for the dead and purgatory can be seen as separate if you see God as existing outside of time, and that prayers may be offered up at any time. Many people pray for the dead, yet do not believe in purgatory. This is particularly true, I've found, in the Anglican church (although not all Anglican churches, I hasten to add!)

MaryBS · 07/04/2009 12:31

Kay, I really never thought of the rude version, when I gave myself that name! Trouble is, everyone knows me as that now, so to change permanently it would cause confusion!

KayHarker · 07/04/2009 12:54

That's a good (though slightly head-melty) point about the praying for the dead idea. But I guess I've mostly seen the Maccabees passage used as the scriptural justification for both praying for the dead and, by extension, purgatory.

The Anglicans I know who pray for the dead (and actually, when I was an Anglican, I recall it as part of the liturgy at the same point as praying for the ill) wouldn't bother using Maccabees as a proof text, though.

They'd just say 'wibbly wobbly timey wimey'

Rhubarb · 07/04/2009 13:24

I caught my kids praying to Jesus to revive their deflated balloon the other day!