Any examples of misogynism in New Testament - thinking Paul perhaps?

[swanriver]

On another thread a poster has referred to misogyny (sp) in religion, wondering whether Xtianity is exempt? Thinking of passage Wives be subject unto your husbands.
But hoping to be contradicted on this. Presumably the relationship between wife and husband is meant to be the same as relationship between Christ and Church ie: both equally important to each other.

The Bible says that woman was made as a helper to man, but "helper" is a dodgy translation. It's not helper in a subservient context, but the word used is mainly used in a miltary context, as troops wpould help a commander.
I've got loads on this - I'll be back with more in a minute!

Right, Hebrew word for helper is "ezer" which means "sustainer" "life-saver". It is used in Deut 33:29, Exodus 18:4, Psalm 70:5, Psalm 33:20.

The wife in Proverbs 31 shows integrity and a strength of character. She's a business women, she runs a large household, managing servants etc. "Her husband has full confidence in her and lacks nothing of value. She brings him good, not harm, all the days of her life."

I think the idea of submission is overblown by society, I consider it more like adapting. The husband has final responsiblity before God for his family, so to "submit" is to promote him, support him, to affirm his leadership in the marriage and the household.

Also worth mentioning that ezer is nearly always used when talking about God, e.g. in the psalms "God is...our help".

So little wifey helpmeet does not stack up one bit.

Sorry, should have made that clearer; 'ezer' is sometimes translated as 'help'.

Good point Clockface - I forgot that bit!
Heard a fantastic talk on "Men & women as God intended" today.

v. interesting.
any more? still worrying about Paul (not really Gospels which are full of women)

Yes to Proverbs verses and the Old Testament Women are strong characters too.

You mean like in his letter to the Corinithians? I guy I heard today (John Groves, excellent speaker btw) explained about how it's very easy to think the Bible is clean and sterile and "Victorian prudishness" and couldn't possibly apply to our society today. Actually the Corinithian church was full of homosexuals, transvestites, adultery, rape, lots of dubious sexual practices (also, at the time the fun of visiting the circus was to see people torn apart by wild animals, and people were publicly executed and crucified, for entertainment) So Paul was writing at a time that society was far more debased than is generally accepted today. Paul reminds the church that God made one man, and he gave that man one woman.

A "safe sex" talk, to all intents!

I don't think reading the Old or New T one could possibly think Bible sterile and prudish as it is full of hairraising stories.
I suppose I was just asking why people might feel justified in feeling the Christian faith misogynistic and how to ease their fears on this matter.

off to bed now, will reread Corinthians.
Thanks everyone.

Tom Wright's stuff on Paul and Women is very good:

www.ntwrightpage.com/Wright_Women_Service_Church.htm

Correct swanriver.

It does say for wives to be subject to husbands but tougher than that is for husbands to love their wives the way Christ loved the church. Essentially to give himself up for his wife, to the point of death if required.

wondering if the Paul thing is because of me

I don't see misogynism in Paul's letters.

He acknowledges that women are equal but different to men.

There may be a prevailing culture to the contrary but Paul does not encourage this.

In the Gospels, there are many examples where women have been in the lead.

inthescrum Eve was Adam's second wife the first being Lilith

ime, in the NT, your trickiest problem is in 1 Timothy 2 -

Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

The whole passage is fairly hairy, in terms of equality, but the bolded parts are the really sticky bits.

The only answers I've ever seen to them has been to dismiss them as extra-biblical, hypercontextualize them by saying they were about a very specific woman, or suggest that Paul was responding to a question put to him.

All of which seem reather convoluted to me. But this is the passage which has been used to clobber me the most, and the one I find the hardest to deal with.

According to Jewish folklore, Lilith was the first wife of Adam. She was banished from the Garden of Eden when she refused to make herself subservient to Adam (specifically, she refused to get into the missionary position with him during sex). When she was cast out, she was made into a demon figure, and Adam was given a second wife, Eve, who was fashioned from his rib to ensure her obedience to her man.
so going on this the role of woment must be sunmissive in the Bible although the strong wpmen are usually strong in order to help a male

I really like Tom Wright He did my Oxford interview and was very nice to me as he could see how nervous I was.

Paul does seem to come out with statements which to the modern eye are sexist although you need to remember that Paul's letters were addressed to a specific audience and therefore he would be addressing specific issues. But like Kay I find the above passage quite hard to stomach.

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Interesting as I've always found the myth of Lilith, I'm not really sure what relevance it especially has to this really. It's not mentioned in the OT or the NT.

I was trying to explore that from day 1 in the bible women's role has been seen as subservient - the jewish mythology quote was the first one I found to explain LIlith who is not widly acknowledge in Christianity,

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But that's kind of covered in the stuff already mentioned about 'help' in Genesis, and the different interpretations of that.

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