catholics - what do you think when the Church hierarchy say something really homophobic etc

[time4tea]

I'm a practising Catholic - and a sincere believer in Jesus' message of compassion for others (80s liberation theology I suppose). But although I have a lot of respect for my amazing parish priest, who has so many good things to say about life and faith, and enjoy going to mass, I find it harder and harder to deal reconcile this with some of the Church's teaching about contraception, HIV/AIDS prevention, abortion, and homsexuality. Plus of course, a lot of the cover-ups over sexual abuses against children by priests...

how do you deal with this? it is "their" church and they make the rules. I keep wanting to just leave or disassociate myself from the whole thing but in my profoundest heart, I love attending mass, and see so many other things that are a source for good. But the reality is that the stuff I am concerned about is what is really pushed on in terms of public messages from the Vatican.

is anyone else concerned about this sort of thing...?

If it's all optional than presumably you can believe in Allah and still be catholic. If it's not all optional then can anyone list the bits that can't be changed?

rotfl@onager -in one line you have summed up what i was trying to say in an entire evening of lame argument. Would you like a drink?

let's grab a muslim, a christian and a jew and we can all get drunk and discuss theology.

i can be catholic and believe that god is known by different names, and different people worship him in different ways

Nicene Creed - Profession of Faith - is the affirmation of the list of stuff we believe in

I think this is the right Nicene Creed for catholics. There are lots.

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, the only-begotten, born of the Father before all ages. Light from light, true God of true God, begotten, not made, of one substance with the Father, through whom all things were made. Who for us men and for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate from the Holy Spirit and Mary the Virgin, and became man. He was also crucified for us under Pontius Pilate, and suffered and was buried. And He rose again on the third day, according to the scriptures. And He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of the Father. And He will come again with glory, to judge the living and the dead, and of His kingdom there will be no end. And in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, and Giver of life, who proceeds from the Father, who together with the Father and the Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the prophets. In one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I profess one baptism for the remission of sins. I expect the resurrection of the dead; and the life of the world to come. Amen.

So anything goes apart from that then. Since it doesn't require you to do or refrain from doing anything it's quite an easy religion.

well there are the commandments

you can google them too

But don't Catholics believe that there is only one God - the God they worship? I'm sure that was a big part of my RCIA course@Brenda.

I think the truth of it all can be discovered by watching that cultural masterpiece of our time "The Tudors"

• Thomas Moore - against hypocrisy, decides you have to be consistent - take it or leave it - you have to swallow everyting the pope tells you - you can't compromise - brave - admirable in so many respects - seems like the good guy .....but burns people at the stake.

• Cardinal Wolsey (sp?) - pragmatic, probably a bit hypocritical, wouldn't have minded swearing to anything if it got him somewhere ..... but carefully arranged things so that no-one got burnt at the stake when he was in charge.

So theoretically it's the "Moore" hardliners that command my respect but the trouble is that when those people get power it's a very nasty lookout for the rest of us. So we really need those Wolseys (sp?)in the Church.

So I really really hope that the OP doesn't abandon her church to the hardliners and the non-thinking "sheep" (who presumably just think nasty thoughts about gays because they think the Church thinks that's ok) but instead works for change from within. The limbo thing is a great example of how things can progress. And I saw progress in Catholic schools between the time when my brother started there (he was regularly told he was going to hell because he wasn't a Catholic and it has messed him up royally) and the time I got there (they'd softened up by then). Catholic pragmatists please stay in the church for the sake of everyone!

We will!!We have a Diversity and Equal Opps awareness now that just wasn't around when Moore was

Moore's probably turning in his grave (only he didn't get one as I recall from the learned tv show).

MrsBrendaDyson, I left out the commandments because the Nicene Creed leaves them out too and many christians will tell you that they no longer apply since Jesus 'swept away the old law' and replaced it with "be nice to people"

Lingle, I like your point about Wolsey and Moore and feel the same way. For the same reason I should be pleased to hear people quoting jesus (mythical or not) who spent much of his time saying "give people a break"

I keep finding myself drifting back to "If you're going to do it then at least do it properly" Which is why I have a sort of respect for Muslims who seem to take it all more seriously.

If I were a christian I'd be a torch and sword waving fanatic slaughtering the heretics.

Time4tea, If you check the other "branches" of Christianity you will find similar views on these issues as those expressed by the Pope to more or less extent. (I think the main difference is, though, that apart from maybe the Orthodox patriarch (?) the protestant churches don't have an Apostolic succession in the form of the Pope and so what the different leaders say isn't declared as God's absolute will in the same way.)(Byw, interesting that about apostolic succession. Even Peter, the "rock on which the church was built" got it wrong on whether gentiles could become Christians or not and had to be corrected by Paul. So even the first "Pope" was proved to be human and fallible.)

I think every person who has faith, and tries to live by it honestly and thoughtfully struggles with questions like this. I think it is part of having a faith. Some people call it doubt. I once discussed this with a pastor who is also a phychologist and phychotherapist and I found his reply very helpful. THe way he put it is that you can either have faith that is like a balloon or faith that is like an apple. If your faith is like a balloon, it bursts and is completely ripped to shreds when you come across things that you don't or can't agree with. If, on the other hand, your faith is like an apple, if you take a bite of it and it "tastes" bad you can choose to spit it out (or swallow it for that matter, too). The point is that the apple isn't totally destroyed and that you still have left the seeds or core at the centre, i.e. the central message about God's love, Jesus death and resurrection, forgiveness of sins, etc, which is really what the Christian message are about).

Unless we switch off our brains and close our eyes to the world around us, it is a process we all go through in one way or another. It's about taking ownership of your faith and making it your own, rather than just accepting it as given or inheriting it. I don't think that questioning and/or chosing not to agree with some the teachings or views expressed by the top of the church or church leadership should be called "pick and mix" religion. That is to trivialise people's genuine quest for making sense of their faith and their life in it. But then, maybe that's because I'm a protestant .

Is it not a core belief that the pope is chosen by god to be a good person to lead his church and to set an example?

Never mind infallibility, surely his selection means he is a decent sensible person who god is happy to have represent him? God would know wouldn't he. Since he could see his innermost thoughts.

If so then surely if the pope is the kind of person who preaches homophobia and covers up abuse cases etc that casts doubts on the idea that god wanted him as pope. I would think this doubt would be a matter of great concern to all catholics even if they didn't have strong feelings about gay people etc.

The Pope does NOT preach homophobia!!! The media just like to present it that way. The central message of catholicism (and Christianity in general) is 'love thy neighbour' and the Pope really is not trying to change this...
The Catholic religion states that sexual acts are only permissable within a loving relationship between two married people (and incidentally, it does not say that the whole aim of sexual acts is to produce children).
Catholicism also acknowledges the fact that we ALL (except Jesus and perhaps Mary)do things that it tells us not to do.
The Catholic belief is that no-one has the right to judge anyone else - only God can do that, and god is very forgiving.
... just wanted to clear that up as I'm so sick of hearing people going on and on about the Pope being homophobic.
I also think there is far too much made of the abuse cases - every arguement against Catholics mentions 'the cover up of abuse' in random, non-specific ways... yes, there have been a few problems in that area (as in other organisations) but they are no longer 'covered up' - you have to be CRB checked to so much to speak to a child in a church these days...

Anyway, just wanted to present the Catholic side again as there seems to be so few of us on mumsnet!

Onager - with regard to your comments on the creed, I would say 'Believe in one holy Catholic and apostolic church' means that you believe in the teachings of the Church (covered in the catechism which is more than 600 pages long) - so no, I don't think it's true that anything goes!
I'd also like to comment on lingle's reference to 'non-thinking sheep' - presumably refering to people like me who follow their religion. I believe I've thought a lot more about it than most (have looked into lots of other religions in the past, particularly after the death of my mother when I was searching for 'deeper meanings') and I've had countless arguements with myself and others about most of the issues mentioned here. My own thoughts and logic have led me back to agree with the Catholic church every time.

Sorry but just have to comment again as each time I read through this thread something gets to me! Onager, you say you respect Muslims 'who take it all more seriously' - I agree completely.

Why then do people not respect the Catholics who take their faith just as seriously as those Muslims? The main gist of this thread seems to be that it's fine to be catholic as long as you don't agree with the more controversial stuff and don't take it too seriously!

mersmam, If you think "there is far too much made of the abuse cases" then I suppose you also see no harm in the pope having been part of the coverup. This is the man who god picked as the best example of christianity?

I guess the victims were just being anti-catholic when they reported what was done to them. People are so mean to catholics aren't they.

As for your second point that catholics must obey the 600 page long catechism I think that means that most of those posting that they are 'catholic, but do what they think is right' are by that ruling not catholic at all. You explain it to them as I have to go now for a bit.

Onager, I think what abuse cases there were were obviously very serious and horrible. However, bad things happen and mistakes are made in every religion and organisation. What I'm saying is that I think it's unfair that every catholic- basher drags up the 'abuse cover up' in every arguement... as if to suggest that every 'good Catholic' supports the cover up of child abuse!
Believe it or not, the majority of serious catholics do not support child abuse.

No I do not believe the victims were being anti-catholic to report what was done to them. I just think those people who go an and on about those cases (perticularly those with no personal involvement) are doing it purely ''to be mean to Catholics''!

And yes my view is that all Catholics should TRY to abide by the 600 page long catechism - that is the point of being a catholic, to try and live life in the way that Jesus wanted us to.

It is not about going to church for an hour each Sunday, it's about the way you try to live your life.

I'm sure that no catholics actually do obey the catechism all the time - but the point is they should try to.

If someone really disagrees with points in the catechism and has no intention of trying to abide by it then that's fine for them. I have no problems with those people attending Sunday Mass (although whether they should receive Communion is another matter!)...
But if that was me I'd go out and find some other religion. I suppose if you want to classify them you could do it as those who take their faith seriously and those who do not - that's my view anyway.

With regard to the comments on Papal infallibility, this does NOT mean that we take everything the Pope says as being true.

''It is incorrect to hold that doctrine teaches that the Pope is infallible in everything he says. In reality, the invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare.'' (from Wikipedia)

The Pope will state when he is being infallible and to be so he must be in agreement with various factors such as natural law.

So to be Catholic you do not have to agree with everything the Pope says (for instance you do not have to support the same footbal team ) but you do need to agree with everything the catechism says - and most of what the current pope says I feel is in line with that.

Sorry to post yet again but I keep thinking of more things I want to add!!

With ref to the OP, time4tea I would suggest that you get a copy of the catechism (if you haven't got one already) and look up the specific areas that concern you, and if you don't agree with them find a good 'hard core' priest to discuss them with.

Don't rely on what you hear about the Pope which is filtered through the media.

'non-thinking sheep' - presumably refering to people like me who follow their religion"

Presuming wrong there, mersmum .

Thank you Lingle - I'm glad but who were you referring to then?

i think to infer that all priests are bad or all religeon is pants because of abuse scandle is rather like saying all muslims with ruck sacks are terrorists

generalisations are not helpful, all religeons have done bad things, whilst those bad things cannot be justified, it doesn't make the religeon itself, bad...just the person.

To the OP:

I think it's very hard nto to be influenced by the way noncatholics define us. They tend to think the church's teaching on sexuality is its most important feature, whereas for us it's more usually the mass. I'd say if it's mass that you love, just go wiht that and don't expect the Church Militant in the world to be too much like the Church Triumphant in heaven

A thing to say on sexual teaching might be that while the church condemns gay sex, but not gay men or gay love, it also condemns any sex outside Catholic marriage, which means the vast majority of sex currently taking place in Britain this week. Gay sex is no worse than and no better than ordinary nonmarital or extramarital sex or any sex practised in an effort to avoid the conception of a child, or even sex within a nonCatholic marriage, if you are really really strict.

Alternatively, you might say that Catholic marriage OR celibacy are ideals, and difficult ideals for some (most?) at that. I'm really sympathetic about mistakes in this area because I'm so rarely tempted. Greedy eating, now... and envy.. much more my besetting sins. This is really just luck, and I'm not especially pleased with the fact that i'm lucky enouygh to be in a catholic marriage - just dumb luck, or grace.

I suppose you could say that just as homophobia is a mortal sin, very serious, so too is fastbreaking, having a lie-in on Sunday, and a determination to pursue your own desires regardless of the consequences - as some but by no means most gay and het men did in the era of incurable AIDS. Only God could say which of these others are serious, if any. But anything which has a negative impact on you or someone else is worth avoiding where possible.

What Jesus did say on earth was that only he who is wihtout sin should cast the first stone at a woman convicted of adultery. But the Pope also has to provide moral leadership on the ideals, as well as offering love and hope to anyone trying to rethink their life.

Obviously, almost everyone nowadays is going to feel excluded by this body of teaching and it's not the first thing a Catholic might want to talk about when describing why we keep going back to church, and it's not the first thing the church is apt to ask of anyone. But until recently this idea - lifelong commitment and raising a family - was most people's aspiration, for better and for worse, indeed. It's debatable whether everythign is better now with a 50 percent marital failure rate...

You've made some great points JaneLumley. I do think it's good to have those ideals that you mention to try to live up to - it gives life a purpose! Like you, I'm fortunate enough to be in a Catholic marriage so have a pretty easy time trying to live up to them (but I still fail miserably!), and I'm a definite believer in grace - hopefully it will save a wretch like me