catholics - what do you think when the Church hierarchy say something really homophobic etc

[time4tea]

I'm a practising Catholic - and a sincere believer in Jesus' message of compassion for others (80s liberation theology I suppose). But although I have a lot of respect for my amazing parish priest, who has so many good things to say about life and faith, and enjoy going to mass, I find it harder and harder to deal reconcile this with some of the Church's teaching about contraception, HIV/AIDS prevention, abortion, and homsexuality. Plus of course, a lot of the cover-ups over sexual abuses against children by priests...

how do you deal with this? it is "their" church and they make the rules. I keep wanting to just leave or disassociate myself from the whole thing but in my profoundest heart, I love attending mass, and see so many other things that are a source for good. But the reality is that the stuff I am concerned about is what is really pushed on in terms of public messages from the Vatican.

is anyone else concerned about this sort of thing...?

Good point,tumtum (it's sort of like the third option but without all the wankery angst)

Love your post MrsBD

good points MrsBD, tumtum and Iorek

Why can't I ever think of eloquent yet witty responses?

It sounds to me like most people who claim to be catholic are christians but dont know which branch. I can completely understand why you want to stay in the religion you are born into, I would give anything for the kind of community we had growing up but I would feel like a massive hypocrite.

If you have a minute find out what religion you really are, I found the results really interesting

quiz

Iorek it is very similar but I don't think my friends would acknowledge that the church was deeply flawed if challenged.

TBH I never do challenge them. I am an athiest and have a lot of trouble with religion in general, and I just don't ask them the difficult questions as everyone gets too uncomfortable. I have tried about twice in the last 20 years but it adds up to asking my friends to defend the indefensible and does not lead to happy outcomes.

Religion is definitely not a subject I choose to discuss with the religious

Ooh I love a good quiz!

My results are:

1. Secular Humanism (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (95%)
3. Liberal Quakers (82%)
4. Theravada Buddhism (78%)
5. Nontheist (75%)

I have only heard of 3. and 4.!

Have heard Humanism mentioned on these boards but no idea what it is. Wonder if athiesm is not an option as an answer on the quiz - that is what I think of myself as...

Sorry off topic I know but fun!

My views will probably be unpopular here, but I am a Catholic and as such I believe it's my duty to fully embrace everything about the Catholic faith! I really do not think it is possible to pick and choose and just be 'half catholic'!
I agree with what the church classifies as right and wrong - it is not just a list thought up by the current pope but a belief system based on thousands of years of thought from minds much greater than my own.
My view is that the most important message given by the church is that everyone does things wrong and everyone can be forgiven for the wrong things they do. 'Hate the sin but love the sinner' is in my belief the central message - the church does NOT have vendettas against people, it just views that certain acts are morally wrong... and although it is not particularly fashionable at the moment I agree!!

I think most ordinary mass going Catholics are perfectly capable of thinking for themselves. The church doesn't insist that anyone believes what they don't believe do the extent that Vatican 2 declared that no one could be constrained to share a conviction that is not his or her own. I think things are changing, but its very slow. Officially the church no longer sees homosexuality as unnatural, although they are still against practicing homosexuality (don't understand why)but hopefully this will change too. After all homophobia amongst elderly men isn't restricted to the RC church. The sexual abuse scandals are awful but again not an exclusively Catholic problem. The Pope has officially apologised to the victims and whilst that doesn't make it ok, it does mean that abusing children is not an official part of being a Catholic. Pro Catholic doesn't mean pro abuse.
As for the HIV/holes in condoms fiasco, I think that it was one on those lies that got repeated so often in gained the status of fact. Allegedly it started out with one priest saying HIV could get through condoms and for some reason it spread. The Vatican backed it up for some reason, but it doesn't now. Personally I think its ridiculous that there are still priests in Africa saying people with HIV shouldn't use condoms but I do think that preaching about abstinence/not asking little girls to swap sex for food has its place too. More than 1 in 4 AIDS patients are treated in a RC centre. A sister from our parish left us last year to work in an AIDS orphanage in Zambia.

Personally I am pro gay, pro condoms for disease prevention but think that chastity would go a long way to reducing STIs, pro contraception within the confines of a loving relationship, don't like abortion but understand it is necessary in some circs (not necessary in every circumstance -I hate the 'are you going to keep it' mentality). I think that the abuse cover up was awful, ditto holes in condoms but I'm proud of the churches work with people with AIDS. I think that the Vatican is a bit obsessed with sex but its often twisted by the media eg Vatican says that future priests need to be celibate for 2 years before even starting to 'train' as priests. Daily Mail headline 'Homosexuals banned from priesthood even if they aren't practicing'. I don't sound like much of a Catholic do I, but conscience first and the Pope afterwards etc.

Ladyjuliafish, one thing I find very difficult to understand is how can you not like abortion but think it is OK sometimes? (I'm not meaning to attack you here but I know it's a view held by a lot of people and I really don't see how it can be justified). If you don't like the idea of abortion is that because you believe it is basically killing babies? If that is the case how can it ever be right? Surely nothing could justify it... I do not mean to turn this onto a debate on abortion (as I know it will offend a lot of people) - but it truly is something that confuses me!

mersmam briefly I think that a lot of people accept that there are situations where there is no reason sacrificing the life (sometimes literally) of a girl/woman for the sake of another life.

I also think that the vast majority of people who worship in the catholic church are what you would call "half catholic". Without those many millions the catholic church would not be nearly as powerful, wealthy or influential - arguably those are the people who keep the church going in this country.

I still don't think you can be a 'liberal' Catholic. Sorry. To me it just seems nonsensical. Join a more liberal sect of Christianity if you don't agree with the fundamentals of Catholicism. Of course, the schools may not be as good...

mrsmattie I honestly think that most people don't think about it, they don't lose any sleep over it. They are catholic because that is what they are.

If they did think about it, they would have to leave, like I did. So they don't think about it so that's fine.

Tumtumtetum, as far as I'm aware the Catholic church agrees that if the mother is definitely going to die then in that circumstance only abortion is acceptable. That is a very very rare circumstance though in this day and age. If the sacrificing of the life is not 'literal' then surely someone who is anti-abortion generally would see putting the baby up for adoption as a better option?
I probably agree with you about there being so many 'half catholic's' - but I do think it is a shame!

It is really horrible to think that people are catholic because 'that's what they are' !! If you have a religion or faith surely it should be the basis of everything you believe in - or what's the point??

I can usually let it wash over me then Pope Benedict makes some stupid comment, like one he made over Christmas which went something along the lines of 'Gay relationships are a bigger threat to the world than climate change' and I feel like carrying placards and banners to mass.

There's a huge discrepancy between what's believed by normal church going Catholics and The Vatican. It's easy to see it as small and insignificant in the scheme of things, but given that people are beaten up and killed in homophobic attacks, women are being infected with HIV because they feel they can't wear condoms etc etc .... I YEARN for change from the top.

That said, so much of the ethos and teachings of Catholisism is so spectacularly brilliant that it's hard to abandon it altogether.

This is something I think about daily and worry about.

Mrs Mattie it all depends what you believe the fundamental issues of Catholicism to be. If you believe Catholicism to be fundamentally about anti-homosexuality and anti-abortion, then I agree it would be nonsensical for you as a liberal to call yourself a Catholic. If on the other hand you think there might be something else at the heart of Catholicism, then it may not be so clear cut.

yes, mersmam, in principle I do agree with you.

But what about community, family heritage, upbringing, enjoyment of the structure of the Mass, an aesthetic appreciation of the architecture / sculpture / art of the particular Catholic church you attend?

There are lots of reasons why someone defines themselves as Catholic (or Cof E, or Methodist, or Baptist), and I would wager that the reasons I've listed above play a major part for many churchgoers.

I could leave the Catholic church on the grounds that I don't agree with all the Church's teachings. I could decide to join the local Evangelical church, where I wouldn't know a soul (and so would miss the friendship and support of the Catholic community), I would have broken away from a common belief with my grandparents and wider family, I wouldn't know the service so would feel adrift, and I would be attending a service held in a 60s village hall rather than a really beautiful church, which I find calming and awe-inspiring. And who's to say I'd agree with everything that the Archbishop of Canterbury had to say?

We can only strive for a whole-hearted and unconditional belief. Is it so wrong to benefit from a sense of friendship and belonging along the way?

mersmam I think that life begins at conception and an unborn child should have the same right to life that adults take for granted. I think that our society has an exaggerated notion of choice and personal freedom which has left those who can't exercise their freedoms vulnerable. The 'right' to an abortion has a legal status in order that freedom of choice should not be limited for the strong, but its at the expense of the weak. I don't like the way we have gone from abortion being legal if the life of the mother is in physical danger, to abortion being legal if the mothers mental health is at risk , to the situation now which is abortion on demand even if technically its not. I also don't like the assumption that you should get screening whilst pregnant and abort if there is any problem at all. People are encouraged to abort Downs babies. Babies have been aborted because of treatable conditions such as cleft palate, or because of conditions such as acondraplasia because other people think wrongly that certain conditions are incompatible with any quality of life.

However, its just not practical to ban abortion. People would go to dodgy blokes with dirty knives and end up dying, or else just travel to where it is legal. I can totally sympathise with someone who ends up pregnant with a baby that they don't want and I don't think it would be particularly helpful to force all women to carry every baby to term. Its not that simplistic but I think that the acceptability of abortion for social reasons is damaging for society, and the individuals involved.

I don't think that abortion is ever 'right' but I think that it is often understandable and occasionally necessary.

What misshardbroom said.

Most of my friends have Irish/Italian parents and catholicism is part of their culture, of who they are. It connects them with their communities and extended families in other countries. It is simply what they are.

Why is that horrible? Without all of those people there would probably be no-where for you to worship in this country because there aren't enough fundamental catholics to keep it going.

Misshardbroom - I agree with you completely - as long as we ARE striving for that whole-hearted belief (I'm certainly still striving!) What I think is unacceptable is that people who are not striving for it, or not even wanting to strive for it, call themselves Catholics - that's a bit controversial isn't it? - but it's what I believe!

Hmm I do understand what you are saying Ladyjuliafish... but also think if abortion wasn't legal there would be far less abortions.
Also, I think that forcing women to carry a baby to term is a better option than allowing a healthy baby to be killed.
I just can't ever get my head around the idea that an innocent baby can be legally killed for any reason really... and that's what abortion is if life begins at conception.
Anyway, will not comment on this anymore as as I said I don't want to turn this into a discussion on abortion.

Tumtumtetum - if Catholicism is what they at=re then they must agree with every aspect of the Catholic faith??

I don't think it's horrible that anyone goes to church by the way! Just very sad if they cannot fully enter into and enjoy their faith completely and without reservation.

It's why I left the church. I disagree with Vatican teaching completely on contraception, abortion and homosexuality. Most of the Catholics I know- including my family- disagree with some or all of the church's teaching on those issues, but still attend church. They feel that those things are matters for personal conscience.

I couldn't accept that, and the recent comments from the pope stating that homosexuality was a greater threat to mankind than global warming have been the spur I needed to stop classing myself as a lapsed catholic and sever all connections with the church.

mersmam I don't think I can really engage on this subject with you as we have such totally opposite views that we will get nowhere.

Suffice to say that my friends who have been born and raised catholic, and worship every sunday etc etc would not adhere to the more extreme points of the faith, and they are happy to call themselves catholic, the priests at their churches are happy to call them catholic, and everyone gets along nicely.