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Original poster

Ideas for debate with my father needed please re: Witches

34 replies

TricknTreatinHairyToedHobbit · 27/10/2008 01:39

In relation to this argument here the Christian replying seems to hold exactly the same view as my Dad. I came across this while researching answers and thought it would save me the time trying to explain his views.

The context of our heated row lively discussion is that while attempting to solve a crossword clue my Dad started on about an incident many years ago when a Witches' coven was discovered in a local village. My father insists that the Witches were "praying" for the break-up of the local Christian's marriages.

My view was that if this was actually happening (which I doubted) then the "coven" were not Witches. Anyway I hope I'm right and I'm hoping to be able to give a better argument next time although I don't think I'll ever win one on religion

My background is that after being brought up being (IMVPO) brainwashed by two evangelical Christian parents, I have spent the past 20+ years questioning everything. I have a fascination for other people's beliefs and why they believe what they do.

I won't expect any replies tonight but had a spare couple of hours when I couldn't sleep and this has been bugging me for a while and could well come up again this week as it is a bit topical.

OP posts:
wehaveallbeenthere · 27/10/2008 01:48

TTHTH, I think the use of the word "coven" goes back to the Salem witch hunts. I may be wrong but you should not take anyones word on anything but do your own research.
The history of religion is fascinating. It seems that there is always some new development and always some argument going on. Although society expects you to accept old teaching in religion and other subjects never...NEVER stop asking and seeking answers.

bloss · 27/10/2008 06:27

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bloss · 27/10/2008 06:34

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solidgoldskullonastick · 27/10/2008 06:47

Well if there were some spiteful silly sods praying for other people's marriages to break up, then that was nasty and childish of them, but unless they actually announced it to their intended victims, and their intended victims were stupid and gullibile and easily influenced (which OK if they belonged to an evangelical outfit they might well have been) it would have had no effect.

Some religious people are a bit obsessed with slagging off all other brands of faith. TO make a big deal of how 'wrong' another set of myths are usually suggests that the person isn't that sure of the truth of his or her own preferred flavour of superstition.
Apart from the core values of being nice to other people and not lying or stealing or randomly attacking folk (you know, the bit that the majority of the superstitious tend to forget about in favour of bleating at other people, starting wars and trying to get stuff banned), religions are all a load of old cock anyway.

SuperSillyus · 27/10/2008 07:02

I think alot of christians do not believe in satan though. I must admit that christian statement sounds simplistic to me. And the christians I know would find it silly too- you can't worship satan if you don't believe in him and it's the christians who invented/believe in him.
But many christians will have that viewpoint I suppose. Though I don't think I know any, maybe they might believe there is a force of evil rather than an evil intelligence out there somewhere.

But I am definately all for people questioning and finding their own understanding of things.
And I'm all for acceptance of each other's viewpoints but I know that doesn't work easily (including for me.)

SuperSillyus · 27/10/2008 07:07

Well I accept and enjoy other people's viewpoints but I can't help thinking some of them are daft just as people will think my views are daft.

I find myself increasingly drawn to the wiccans

LostProphet · 27/10/2008 07:18

Wicca is a form of paganism which has been about a hell of a lot longer than Christianity came along with satan.

Seriously - praying for people's marriages to break up? Why? (Not impossible obv, but still why?)

There is no way to argue against that mindset. It doesn't matter if it is Wicca, Judaism or anything else, the belief is going to be the same - You don't believe in MY god etc, therefore you are being tricked by the devil.

I don't think you'll win any argument on this with him, I would go with avoiding the subject tbh

bloss · 27/10/2008 07:43

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solidgoldskullonastick · 27/10/2008 09:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for that lovely demonstration of the relevant mindset, Bloss - 'My imaginary friend is better than yours, so there. No matter what you think, I am right because I say so.'

TTHTH. depends really on your relationship with your dad. 'What a load of old cock, dad' will work in some families, but you might be better off with 'Let#s agree to differ, eh dad?'

bloss · 27/10/2008 11:59

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solidgoldskullonastick · 27/10/2008 12:42

Bloss: No, have not been abused by priests or anything. I don't care which bunch of myths people choose to announce are the true ones, just get irritated by people who insist that not only is their imaginary friend the only Real one, but that everyone who has picked (or been brought up with) a different myth system is a dreadful eeeeevil person.

bloss · 27/10/2008 15:03

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PhantomOfTheChocolateCakeAvena · 27/10/2008 15:09

I agree with LostProphet. Many midwives were burnt as witches aswell. The pagan way of life was around way before christianity, christmas is a pagan tradition that was take over, the christmas meal/tree/presents are also pagan. The start which guided the three wise men to bethlehem has been traced back and astronomers have discovered that it's not over bethlehem in December but in March (ish).

onager · 27/10/2008 15:22

I'd ask how somone could know that "Witches were praying for the break-up of the local Christian's marriages". Were they there?

As has been said you're not going to get a rational debate on it since a good christian who believes their god is the only one is not going to like competitors no matter what you do.

Phantom, just curious, but do you have a link about the star over bethlehem? I'd not heard that and I'm interested in what they would mean by 'over'

PhantomOfTheChocolateCakeAvena · 27/10/2008 15:30

I'll have a look for you. It was on a TV programme several years ago, they trace the path of the stars and can work out where they were at a specific time. It was not over Bethlehem on 25th December though. It took a few months.

PhantomOfTheChocolateCakeAvena · 27/10/2008 15:32

www.ips-planetarium.org/planetarian/articles/common_errors_xmas.html

Was in January according to this dude.

onager · 27/10/2008 15:33

Thanks, Phantom. Going to look now.

slayerette · 27/10/2008 15:34

Phantom - am I right in thinking that Christian festivals are celebrated at the same/similar times to earlier pagan ones? I'm sure I read somewhere that it was one of the ways to ensure Christianity became accepted - by overlaying old traditions with new ones.

wehaveallbeenthere · 27/10/2008 15:38

I saw something similar (they tend to run it during the holiday season) on the Discovery Channel and History Channel.
I thought it was more in June but I think the time moves with the rotation of planets and with all the time in between it was traced back to June.
I thought it was an alignment of stars or planets that appeared to be the star of Bethlehem. It was a long time ago that I watched the show. I think they couldn't find a single start that would have been that bright.
It could also have been a comet like Haleys that moved off into space...one theory.

PhantomOfTheChocolateCakeAvena · 27/10/2008 15:39

Yes, I have a book on the Wiccan year and they all overlap. It just coincides with the seasons. The wiccan's have a celebration for each season (easter-spring, christmas-winter). I'll get the book, hold on.

onager: I couldn't tell from that site whether the author was for or against.

wehaveallbeenthere · 27/10/2008 15:53

After looking up "coven" it seems it is just a "gathering" of number from 3 to whatever.
Whether they were witches discovered in the village I wouldn't know what they were basing that on.
If they were praying for the local Christians marriages to break up I wouldn't know that either.
I would think that if that were the case they are just people seeing marriages on the verge of breaking up (Christian or not) and were just messing with the minds of those. Who knows?
In any case arguing with your parents isn't something you should undertake. Parents (having had them and being one myself) tend to argue to get their point across on a number of subjects. Children (having been one and having my own) tend to either embrace the parents viewpoint or rebel in the opposite direction. It's part of parenting and the child forming their independence.
It can get ugly depending on the importance of the subject matter.

SummatAnNowt · 27/10/2008 17:18

You're not going to win an argument if your dad believes as the person does on that link. No doubt your argument for anything else would be "satan" using you!

I think the only way you could go would be to use his "logic" against him. So maybe suggest he's been infiltrated by satan to think in a way which believes people that aren't actually evil are and thus sowing discord and hatred completely the opposite of what Jesus intend! I mean, anti-abortionists have been known to call for the death of adults!!

solidgoldskullonastick · 27/10/2008 17:55

Bloss: Superstition is a source of concern for me as, while many believers are perfectly decent harmless folk who mind their own business and allow others to do likewise, there are a sizeable number of people who think that their imaginary friend wants them to harass, meddle with or even kill 'unbelievers'. We currently have a government that is pandering to superstition in a very worrying way. And people whose mindset is that of the OP's dad irritate me especially if they get themselves into any kind of position of power, because then they can cause a lot of trouble.

Lauriefairycake · 27/10/2008 18:12

I think what summannowt said - just raise an eyebrow and ask why he thinks bringing forth the christian faith is anything to do with idle gossip and talking about other people behind their backs.

I think one of the characteristics of a mature Christian is not concerning yourself with 'dark forces' or speculating what is a dark force. I mean, it's not exactly living with love in the light is it?

Get him to read 'The Shack' (a christian book suitable for evangelicals which challenges some of the stupid things concerned with hatred that christians do).

Also there's a fab witchcraft museum in Boscastle which sadly received poo in the post and death threats against the guy who opened it - if that's not intolerance and hatred I don't know what is.

bloss · 27/10/2008 18:53

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