Polytheism not fitting into the binary positions some many atheists and monotheists hold in debates

[SorcererGaheris]

I read this post by polytheist G B Marian and found it very thought-provoking. Discussions/debates on theism vs atheism almost always centre upon atheism and monotheism, with polytheism often excluded.

GBM:

I've been seeing lots of posts about "theism versus atheism" lately, and they all seem rather disingenuous. The discussions in these posts are always framed as conflicts between monotheism and atheism, without fail. No other kind of theism seems to be included or accounted for, except for random occasional commenters like myself.

The monotheists in these discussions always claim that "morality is impossible without God." Meanwhile, the atheists conclude that "all religion is crap" because people don't actually need religion to be good. Neither side makes any leeway with the other, and that's not really the point anyway. These conversations tend to function more as "echo chambers" (and for both sides).

For polytheists like myself, who acknowledge and believe in many different Gods, neither side of this argument really seems to understand the actual purpose of "religion" (as we understand it at least). For us, religion and morality are two completely separate categories. "Religion" is what you do to build a relationship with one or more Gods, spirits, etc., while "morality" is how you treat other living people and creatures.

In polytheism, being a good person is just a social and natural duty. You don't have to worship any particular deity to be good. Atheists are not "sinners," and their disbelief is not a "moral failing." They're just people who don't engage with any Higher Powers, that's all. They are not predestined for hell; in fact, they are entitled to a happy afterlife just as much as anyone else, so long as they are good people at least.

Polytheists do not worship our Gods because They will "send us to hell" if we don't. Nor do we worship Them because we think it is "necessary" for us to be good people. We worship our Gods because we love Them and enjoy Their company; that's literally all there is to it. If you do not already love a God or enjoy Their company, then there is no reason for you to worship Them, and you are not expected to. End of story.

Yes, there are certain ways in which religion and morality can intersect for polytheists. Our Gods are more likely to listen to us when we are good people and we treat others with dignity. But this is very different from thinking you absolutely HAVE to believe in order to be considered "good" in the first place.
If your religious life is likewise centered around relationships, reciprocity, ritual, devotion, and presence with multiple Powers, then the standard “morality needs God" vs. "religion is unnecessary” dichotomy does not apply. When a monotheist says “morality requires God,” a polytheist can fairly respond: “That may be YOUR theology; but it isn’t the only way religion relates to ethics.”

At the same time, polytheistic religion—especially where devotion is elective, plural, and relational—does not fit neatly into the “religion = authoritarian moral policing” template that most atheists are typically reacting to. We are here to demonstrate that religion can (and, indeed, SHOULD) be about practice and relationship WITHOUT hinging on “believe this or be damned.”

Remember these things the next time you're invited to a group that presents itself as being some kind of "showdown" between "theists" (read: monotheists) and atheists.

the focus of the argument between atheists and monotheists is going to be on the major differences between the two philosophies. That doesn’t mean atheists don’t also disagree with polytheistic religions.

Personally, my major issue with any deistic religion is the very concept of worship. Placing humans below another being instead of as capable equals diminishes our potential as a species. We may still need time to learn and grow, but we can do just as much as any other entity in existence with enough time. I object to choosing veneration instead of effort to change and possibly even match those we admire.

Thing is, as an atheist, it makes no difference how many Gods I do not believe in.

In fact, if someone says they believe in 100 Gods rather than 1, then technically they need to provide 100 x the evidence than the person who believes in one. After all, a monotheist just believes in one God more than an atheist.

The monotheists in these discussions always claim that "morality is impossible without God." Meanwhile, the atheists conclude that "all religion is crap" because people don't actually need religion to be good.

This is next level strawmanning.

Yes - the focus on monotheism is, I think partially because they’re currently numerically and politically dominant, but in large part because monotheistic religions are inherently intolerant in a way that polytheists don’t have to be.

@RedTagAlan

The subject of this particular post is not a discussion about the existence of deities, though. It was merely pointing out that that polytheism does not abide by the binaries that can be present in certain discussions about theism and atheism.

Pick 'n' Mix is the name of the game!!

@WaterBubblesWonkyFruit

I'm not sure if it entirely is. The person (G B Marian) didn't claim that these were the opinions of all monotheists and atheists; he said that those kinds of claims are made in the online discussions to which he has borne witness.

To point out the blindingly obvious, atheists aren’t atheists because they believe religion isn’t necessary for morality. They are atheists because they believe God doesn’t exist. They aren’t going to start believing in multiple supernatural entities if they find the existence of just one unbelievable.

@PetiteParakeet

The post wasn't saying anything like that. There was no expectation that atheists would start believing in multiple deities (and they shouldn't, unless for some reason, they actually become convinced of their existence.)

The post was mainly pointing out the significant differences of polytheism to how theism and religion as a whole are often conceived of by many monotheists and atheists.

@RedTagAlan

I would also say that we polytheists do not need to "prove" the existence of our deities to non-theists, because we are not trying make atheists believe they exist.

People only need to prove something if they want to convince other people of its reality.

Polytheists, especially pagan polytheists, are not interested in changing the minds of atheists. We don't care if other people don't believe the gods and goddesses exist.

So we have no obligation to prove anything at all.

To be more charitable, I do think the difference in philosophy between monotheism and polytheism is interesting. But I think the author seems not to understand atheism, treating it as a moral or philosophical stance rather than a logical understanding of the world. I don’t believe in God, or fairies, or vampires. I do believe in gravity, evolution and the existence of other planets. None of that has anything to do with morality.

You also seem to be missing the fact that it is the monotheists who tend to bring up the argument that there is no morality without a god. Atheists are just responding.

@PetiteParakeet

To me, it seems like you may be misreading or misunderstanding what the author was saying.

He was not saying atheists are atheists because of anything to do with morality. He was simply giving an example of some arguments that both monotheists and atheists sometimes make, and explaining that those arguments don't apply to polytheism.

It's not about the reasons why people are atheists or monotheists, but more about some of them having a rather limited understanding of what religion and theism can fully encompass.

@Ponderingwindow

Yes, but their responses only really apply to certain monotheistic expressions of religion, rather than all religions in their totality. Some atheists seem to think that their responses apply to all religions.

The post mentions atheists.

This line, quote "Remember these things the next time you're invited to a group that presents itself as being some kind of "showdown" between "theists" (read: monotheists) and atheists."

It's not a showdown. The same rules apply no matter how many Gods are involved, show evidence that it, or they, exist.

Hitchen's Razor. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence. So show the evidence.

If the post was on about a "showdown" between monotheists and polytheists then fair enough. Sort that out, then involve atheists when some evidence is sorted out.

Which atheists think that disputing certain monotheistic claims regarding morality necessarily applies to all religions?

I believe that there is one God.
But I would call God Love.
The spirit of Love has countless faces and manifestations.

I'm not sure what you might officially call that philosophy though.

@RedTagAlan

I suspect the author made that comment because many of these discussion groups do indeed present themselves as showdowns (in terms of arguments) between monotheists and atheists.

I disagree with the notion that 'extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence'. Who is defining what counts as extraordinary and what makes them unquestionably correct that something counts as extraordinary?

Claims require evidence - but I reject the idea that so-called "extraordinary" claims require an extraordinary amount of evidence.

In any case, polytheists are not making claims of fact when we talk about our beliefs in the gods, we are simply giving a theological opinion.

Sharing a belief or an opinion is not the same thing as making a claim of fact. So polytheists do not, as a rule, have to provide evidence or prove anything, because we are not making factual claims, we are just giving a personal viewpoint. We are also not trying to convince non-theists of the existence of our deities, so no need to give any evidence.

@GasperyJacquesRoberts

Presumably the ones G B Marian has come across in Facebook groups that discuss atheism and theism.

It does not matter if it is ten Gods or one. the understanding of where morality comes from for any atheist does not need anything divine.

Does the description of polytheism described in the OP necessarily apply to all polytheistic religions and polytheists?

@RedTagAlan

I know that. So does the author of the piece I quoted.

@ErrolTheDragon

It definitely applies to all pagan polytheistic religions/pagan polytheists.

Or maybe GB Martin was just raising a strawman.

In any case, polytheists are not making claims of fact when we talk about our beliefs in the gods, we are simply giving a theological opinion.

That may be the case for your particular form of pagan polytheism but I'd hesitate to assume that's true for all polytheists. Hindus, for instance, tend to be more sure about their beliefs.