Do you believe in god?

[Unicorndreams24]

i have recently been thinking a lot about religion and wondering how many believe in god and also what made you come to the decision of believing?

No

Why - he’s a thug - why would anyone want to be associated with him. Does his actions align with your values - they certainly don’t with mine.

We are still Church of England country - no we very definitely are not.

Appleby - The Church wants to maintain the balance.

Hacker - What balance? Between those who believe in God and those who don't. Is there anyone in the Church who doesn't?

Appleby -Oh, yes. Most of the bishops.

Mat 7:15 But take heed of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing, and inwardly are ravenous wolves.

Mat 7:16 From their fruits you will know them; do [men] gather grapes from thorns? Or figs from thistles?

Mat 7:17 So every good tree yields good fruits, but the bad tree yields evil fruits.

Mat 7:18 A good tree is not able to yield evil fruits, nor a bad tree to yield good fruits.

Mat 7:19 Every tree not yielding good fruit is cut down and is cast into fire:

Mat 7:20 therefore from their fruits you will know them.
(LSV)

Good old bible. Has a contradictory passage for everything. So while you might be saying Tommy Ten Names should be forgiven, Jesus said bad trees can't produce good fruit, so chuck them in the fire.

It's a pity that when men were writing the Bible, the Divine editor in chief did not guide them a bit better to avoid mixed messaging

:-)
.

You claimed to know why this individual has professed faith in Christ. That’s a judgement call I wouldn’t be prepared to make, but I can see why an atheist would do so.

I understand from your perspective there is no Holy Spirit who draws people to Christ; no redeeming Saviour who gave Himself to save us; no Father who loves us and desires us to become His children. Anyone you see claiming Christ must be doing so for entirely secular motives.

But from my experience such a God does exist and He is active in the world right now, changing hearts, redeeming lives and making new creatures from the sons and daughters of Adam. I’m willing to allow that a person may claim Christ as a result of divine action.

Thank you for the illustration of how differently an atheist and a Christian see those around them.

The only acceptable action for this individual is a lengthy prison sentence.

Quote : "......but I can see why an atheist would do so."

Again, total failure to see that many atheists were once believers too. Some of us were very religious.

Quote " ..... making new creatures from the sons and daughters of Adam. "

Yeah. That's inbreeding. Who did Cain and Able nookie with ? And in any case, god killed all of them in his flood. So really it should be Noah.

Quote : " I’m willing to allow that a person may claim Christ as a result of divine action."

Why divine action ? Honestly, what happened to free will ? Your statement implies that God singled out Tommy Names for special treatment. That raises a lot of questions. An awful lot.

And remember what Jesus said anyway. Chuck the bad trees on the fire.

Atheists on the other hand, along with most of society, have no issue welcoming reform. Tommy Ten Names could go on telly, reject his past, say he will work for the common good etc. But nah, he is not doing that. He is holding his cross high, and calling for crusade. He is using it to justify his hate.

So there is that to consider before you say " Thank you for the illustration of how differently an atheist and a Christian see those around them."

:-)

You're welcome. I will accept SYL's conversion as genuine when he stops sowing hate and starts healing the divisions he has helped sow. So that would mean recanting all his previous speech, apologising to all UK Muslims for demonising them, volunteering for a charity that supports refugees and making a hefty donation to the RNLI. You think words are enough - I want to see some fruits first.

@LeaningOnTheEverlastingArms - do his values align with yours?

One wonders, doesn't one?

If he had been drawn to God by the power of the Holy Spirit, would he still be behaving in such a profoundly unchristian way?

“You think words are enough - I want to see some fruits first.”

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

That seems to be a particularly common practice of atheists.

Thanks.

Thank you for the illustration of how differently an atheist and a Christian see those around them.

I dare to say you've missed a giant point, @LeaningOnTheEverlastingArms:

Repentance.

Those called by divine deliverance are expected to own their misdeeds and do something about making up for their harms. Non-Christians expect the same.

Merely saying you're sorry isn't enough. In fact, afaik Tommy hasn't publicly apologised for inciting hatred & division since 2013. Since then he's faced numerous legal issues and has not maintained his position of apology.

He's not even saying the words, let alone doing the deeds. No repentance, not even a temporary display. This wouldn't fool either atheists or Christians - unless they view his crimes as divinely inspired. Which makes me wonder about your position.

Loving the not so subtle sneers at atheists.

Wanting repentance and atonement from SYL is not unchristian. Your unquestioning acceptance of his conversion without either repentance or atonement makes me wonder whether you are 1) not au fait with his behaviour over the years, or 2) tacitly OK with same.

Greek and other myths are acknowledged as myths but in essence they are an attempt to explain what is unexplainable, just as the Christian story is.

To precis Stephen Fry: Every time we have a force we cannot understand we personalise it and give it a name, attribute it to a God - e.g. thunder and lightning became the god Thor or another name (depending on which culture you came from), the emergence of plants in the spring was called Persephone or Demeter - different gods and animist spirits that moved things that we could not explain - but slowly science began to explain these things or at least improve our understanding so the god Persephone for instance is now known as photosynthesis or any other relevant scientific term.... it stops being a god.

We need to be able to recognise as myths those postulated beings that are basically our attempt to explain the unexplainable.

In the fullness of time, more will be explained and we will be better able to recognise a myth when we bump into one.

I am not denigrating myths as such - I think they have a role to play for us - just wanting them to be recognized as such.

It is similar to an opera. We don't believe the story, which is far-fetched in the same way as religious scriptures are, but we do recognise its value in highlighting important fundamental aspects of the human condition.

Quote : " Please don’t put words in my mouth."

This is just an observation here, nothing more.

I usually debate US evangelicals on Bible stuff, especially Young Earth Creationists. They are very outspoken. They often go FULL CAPS when explaining exactly what they believe. From who exactly goes UP at the Rapture (them), to who goes DOWN ( me, libs, commies, evolutionists, big bangers, the Pope.... They also say explicitly why they go UP and you go DOWN.

And of course they say they will pray for me, suggest verses to me to heal my sin, the full works. And it can go on for weeks, because as I remind them, if they don't do all they can to convert me, then that's minus a lot of brownie points.

Brit Christians though. Different altogether. Cut from the same sack cloth of course, exact same Bibles (KJV usually), but it can be very difficult to get out their specific thoughts, rather than just generic non-denominational hand waving.

So if you feel I have put words in your mouth, or any Christians mouth in this thread, I apologise. It's not because I assume, it's because I am trying to work it out. Trying to work out what specific beliefs are.

For example, You mentioned Adam and Eve. Therefore, I assume you believe in Genesis. But is that YEC level, or allegorically ? I don't know. And it can be difficult to find out.

This is just a rando chat. And I see no reason for people to be coy about what aspects of religion, or "religious people", they align with.

:-)

“Your unquestioning acceptance of his conversion …”

but I haven’t done that.

I’ve made no judgement whatsoever.

I thought I had stated that clearly but apologies if it wasn’t clear enough.

You're willing to give the benefit of the doubt to a man with a slate as l9ng as my arm just because he claims to be a Christian now, yet you sneer at atheists because we refuse to take him at his word.

You and I have interacted before, so you must know I have no issue with Christians, or any other believers. Several people in my RL support group for people with loved ones in addiction are devout Christians. The difference is that they walk the walk. Yes, I judge SYL. His crimes, which include violence against women, are on record. As things stand, his fruits are plain to see.

And since I don't believe in a deity or an afterlife, I will speak my judgement of him in the here and now. He's earned it.

If he genuinely changes, he'll get my respect instead.

@LeaningOnTheEverlastingArmscould you say something about my earlier post about Tommy Robinson? I said “If he had been drawn to God by the power of the Holy Spirit, would he still be behaving in such a profoundly unchristian way?”

We seem to be at cross purposes.

I made an observation that atheists and Christians view people in general very differently.

I observed that, as an atheist, your declared position that there is no God clearly rules out divine action in anyone’s life. Therefore (in your schema) anyone’s motivation for professing faith in Christ cannot come from a divine revelation or encounter but must, of necessity, be entirely godless. This is logical, given your worldview.

I further observed that Christians believe that God can intervene in a person’s life and that anyone professing faith in Christ may have had a genuine divine conversion experience. There is no automatic acceptance that anyone’s profession is the result of a genuine act of God, rather the simple acknowledgement that such a profession may be genuine. This is logical, given the Christian worldview.

I’ve zero interest in debating Mr Yaxley-Lennon personally and will not be goaded or drawn into such a discussion.

HTH.

I don't think your logic is quite right.

Just because an atheist does not believe in god, it does not follow that they think other people do not. Or that they believe Jesus has talked to them.

I have no problem at all in knowing and understanding that YOU believe in your God. I just don't believe in any. I used to believe.

If Tommy says believes in god. I just choose, based on evidence, that he does not. Same as I don't believe him if he says he says he is not a racist. Because the evidence says otherwise.

Trump is a good example. Do I think he believes in god ? Yes I do. But in his case, the evidence sort of points to the question , does God believe in Trump. He probably wants to get up there to start deporting brown people, libs, dems etc to the other place.

Make Heaven Great Again.

Those red hats might go well with the golden harps.

Oh oh.... gold.

:-)

Sorry, no. I’m not interested in getting drawn into a debate about him.

It doesn't have to be specifically about him though. It's about what saying 'I am a Christian ' means. If you can just say it, be forgiven and carry on doing evil deeds, does it mean anything?

This is a question that's been asked throughout the thread, yet remains unanswered. We've been told repeatedly that Christ died for all of humanity's 'sins' past, present and future. That accepting him into your life washes you clean, though I'm not sure that exact phrase was used.

The implication is that you can be the nastiest cunt the world has ever seen yet, if you are a christian, you're unblemished. If it's been better explained, I must have missed it.