If you are a Catholic please tell me something ...

[Elf]

Hello, I 've been thinking about religion a lot recently and to be honest I'm not sure exactly what Church of England people believe in either but I am interested in the Catholic faith for this thread.

Could you tell me a few things that defines Catholics and whether you believe in these things.

For instance I think, but am not 100% sure, that Catholics are not allowed to use contraception, including condoms, nor get divorced. Now do you think this is a good idea?

If you do fine, but if you don't, can you still call yourself a Catholic even if you don't agree with these things? And other things as well which as I said I don't know about but I am sure there are more "sins" which must be hard to not do in 2008.

You can probably tell my opinion but I am genuinely interested in this situation. Thank you very much.

Hi Elf.
i'm a Catholic and disagree with most of the church's teachings, lol! there are lots of us.see here.

As for contraception, most of us do use it otherwise there would be fuller pews! In our church most families are made up of 2 kids and 1 or 2 adults. Divorce is possible - it's just called anulment instead. Well, there's more to it obviously but i know little about it, tbh.

I still consider myself a catholic because i believe in God and jesus and loving one and other. it is also the faith i was brought up with and therefore identify with most strongly. I enjoy the rituals too and hte strong sense of community. I hope you would like to join the church be that catholics or c of e. you'll never find one that's perfect, but it would be dull and scary if we all agreed, lol!

Elf, I've been finding aout quite a lot about Catholicism lately, although I'm not Catholic myself. Someone on mumsnet reccomended Catholicism for Dummies, which i bought off Amazon, and has been realy useful.

Ds is a lapsed Catholic - untill recently he hadn't been to church since he was 17. REcently our whole family has been going to mass - even though initially I was terrified! ( 'm imagining they have a coil detecor of the church door!)

From what I can gather, it's OK to sin, as long as you go to confession. It's a sin to have sex outside of marriage, but "natural" contraception (wathcing for changes in your body etc) are quite acceptable. Abortion is a massive no-no, and you will be excomunicated if you confess to having a termination.

I think there is a lot of misconceptions about the Catholic faith, and Iv'e found my self repeatedly defening it to my family as late.

Lyn - are you sure about the excommunication thigy? I have never heard that. it is considered a sin by the church, but never ever heard that before!

I think it's unfortunate that Catholicism tends to be defined by it's attitude to sex and contraception (which in my opinion are it's worst aspects).

I think I'm still a Catholic because of the Church's attitudes to social justice and other wider political issues; when I actually make it to mass on a Sunday it's practically the only place I go (apart from the races!!) where people of all different classes are mixed together.

Also I find confession (or the sacrament of reconciliation as it's now called) quite a useful tool to try and look at oneself objectively and work on improving certain bits!

I am an extremely lapsed Catholic.

I heard a very interesting article on the radio the other day about Pope John's encyclical, Humanae Vitae (in the 60's). He reiterated that it was sinful to use any form of contraception. Then in Britain, Cardinal Heenan came out with a fantastic mind-bender of a response because the RC Church here knew that many Catholics would be in a lather about the Pope's diktat. He said that if a couple were using contraception in good conscience then it was acceptable, because people must always follow their conscience.

nicky - that's what I've read in Catholicism for Dummies. But then what is said in confession, stays in confession, doesn't it, so I supose you would have to shout about it pretty loudly.

Thanks for your replies everyone. LOL at worrying about the coil detector at the church door!

It seems that you like certain bits of the faith and Countingthegreyhairs, I do agree church is a good way for people to get together, it's just I don't really get what they are actually doing while they are together.

Anyone got a definition for me?

Loads of Catholics use contraception. I used to but I don't now and I honestly think that my marriage has improved. The church does have a 'double effect' clause wrt contraception whereby if you need to use contraception for medical reasons eg pill for mensural cramps and contraception is a side effect then this is ok.
There is an awful lot of focus on things that are forbidden which makes catholicism look negative to outsiders.
There is emphasis on freedom of religion and no-one should be compelled to believe what they don't believe.

Huge difference between Catholics and Prodestants is that Catholics believe in transubstantiation and Prodestants don't. There is more emphasis on the bible amongst Prodestant churches whereas Catholics use the bible and oral traditions.

I am a Catholic and I don't (and never have) used contraception. Natural Family Planning is just as effective (if used correctly) as any of the artificial methods, so long as you accept the risk that a miscalculation can leave you pregnant.

I also don't believe in divorce. Annulment is not the same as divorce - annulment means that the marriage was never valid in the first place. This can take ages to get through the church (we're talking years here) and is not always granted.

I might be swimming against the grain, but I don't think you can call yourself a Catholic if you don't believe in all the Church's teaching - religion is not a pick and mix affair. It is right to question beliefs and doctrines - God gave us minds and expects us to use them - but you can't go against the teaching of the church and then expect not to be told that you're wrong.

For example, I know of a priest who told a couple that were planning to get married after living together for years that he was happy to marry them, but that the bride was not to come down the aisle with a veil over her face (a sign of virginity). The couple were a little taken aback, but he explained that it was disrespectful to start one's married life with a public lie. The bride didn't wear her veil over her face in the end and they had a lovely wedding.

I won't condemn anyone for what they do in their private life - that's not for me and who's to say that under different circumstances I would not choose the same path? However, I do believe in all the Church teaches because I believe that it comes from a basic resepct for life and social conscience that I truly respect.

Hi Elf,
I am a catholic, but I never go to a priest to give him a list of my sins and ask for forgiveness. I do believe though that if you sincerely regret your wrong-doings and make amends, then life will forgive you, but it has to come from the heart.

I believe in contraception, but only for family planning. I don?t believe in using contraception from the age of 14!!! Sleeping around. Have one-night stands. I think that once you are in a stable relationship and you truly believe you would like to spend your life with this person, then go ahead, use contraception, if the contraception doesn?t work it?s not the end of the world because you are with the person you love.

I think divorce these days is unavoidable, but I also think there would be less divorces if people were a little more careful about their personal lives. However, there are countless of people that marry someone thinking they know them, and when things gets tough the true person comes out. I don't see how divorce can be avoided in many of these situations.
I do believe in the family though.

I don?t believe in abortion. Because I believe in the continuous existence of the soul.

I believe there is compensation and retribution for all good and evil done on earth. Call it Karma, call it heaven, whatever.

I'd suggest Catholicism for dummies. I've found it fantastic and easy to understand

Hi again Elf

lol at coil detector!

I do agree church is a good way for people to get together, it's just I don't really get what they are actually doing while they are together. Anyone got a definition for me?

As a 'struggling' Catholic, I'm probably not best qualified to answer this but fwiw here goes ....

Communal aspects
I know many people say "oh I don't need to be in a church to worship god" but communal worship is pretty central to Christianity. Basically, going to Church together is something that (some) Christians do - the point is being part of a community - and being amongst and alongside people who you may not necessarily have anything in common with, who you may even actively dislike - but you stand together despite this, worshipping God, and this is symbolic of how we want the world to be (in an ideal state!!)

Liturgical aspects
The 'key moment' of the Catholic mass is when the priest consecrates the bread and wine which we then believe become the blood and body of Christ. Basically this is done to remember the sacrifice that Jesus made for us (dying on the cross) and to share in his love for us. This is the transubstantiation that Piggysneed refers to. I think I'm right in saying that the reformed Churches (eg Methodists, Presbyterians) believe the bread and wine to be more symbolic of the body and blood of Christ and then there is a continuum across Christian churches leading to Anglo-Catholics and then Catholics where there is an emphasis on this symbol being a more active reality. Therefore the mass as Catholics view it is basically the partaking in an enactment which points to a reality that is above and beyond our usual everyday understanding of a reality (if that makes sense!!) The reality for Catholics being that they are in the presence of God - memory being crucial here because we as humans are not whole without a memory - so every time we "re - member" we re-establish ourselves as part of the church.

Hope this makes some sense to you - think I need to look at Catholicism for Dummies myself !!!

I think the best way of understanding this further though is just to go to mass. Sometimes it will be awful, the priest will be grumpy, and you will feel nothing. Other times, it will be a truly moving and enriching experience where you will feel the presence of God. This sense grows each time you go.

Btw, although I understand what JCScot is saying when she writes

I don't think you can call yourself a Catholic if you don't believe in all the Church's teaching - religion is not a pick and mix affair

With respect, I think my take on this is a bit different.

I agree the Pope is not here to win a popularity competition - he sets the "ideal", the "highest" standard to which we all try and work towards - most of us however FAIL in this. Even Jesus suffered moments of weakness. I believe it's the trying - the journey - that's the important bit. Sorry - don't wish to cause offence - but the story about the bride not being able to cover her face because she wasn't a virgin sounds like very old-fashioned theology to me; and represents the worst aspects of Catholicism imo.

A friend of mine wasn't recieving for personal reasons and was quite upset about it said something about the mass which was rather nicely put.

She said when we are all together and in comes to the moment when the past and the future come together to that sacrafice on Calgary then I am not there.

It was sad but I think it illustrates why we go to church and why we want to be together rather than worship privately at home.

want to add some thoughts but this -

"From what I can gather, it's OK to sin, as long as you go to confession. It's a sin to have sex outside of marriage, but "natural" contraception (wathcing for changes in your body etc) are quite acceptable. Abortion is a massive no-no, and you will be excomunicated if you confess to having a termination."

from Lynette is such a load of old tosh that I would be here all evening...

PLease don't post things where people are asking for actual facts rather than just opinions, unless you know what you're talking about

I agree the Pope is not here to win a popularity competition - he sets the "ideal", the "highest" standard to which we all try and work towards - most of us however FAIL in this. Even Jesus suffered moments of weakness. I believe it's the trying - the journey - that's the important bit.

Oh absolutely! That's why I said I would never judge anyone who saidf they used contraception/had sex outside of marriage/did anything else contrary to the teachings of the Church. After all, I don't know their circumstances and I don't know how I would react if I had to make the same decisions that they did.

However, I will say that lapses are one thing, but a willful disregard for the teaching of the Church is another. Someone who says "I don't care what the Church teaches on issue x, y or z, I'm going to continue doing it and I'm going to be critical of any priest who tells me that I shouldn't be doing it" is not working towards the "highest standard" you're talking about.

The journey - ups and downs, questions, doubts and certainties - is the important thing.

Regarding the veil - I heard the story from the bride herself and she said that the priest told her that he had a "don't ask, don't tell" policy when it came to people's sex lives. However, he added that if there was blatant proof of something (eg: a child, living together etc etc) happening outside of marriage, then he was duty-bound to say something. His view was that she could wear a veil - just not over her face because of what it symbolised.

I do appreciate that this might sound unusual (depending on what priests you know) but the bride didn't seem upset or annoyed by it - if she was, she didn't say. She asked if I had worn a veil on my wedding day and whether I knew that it symbolised virginity (I did wear a veil and I did know what it symbolised and I also said that I was a virgin when I married, so the question of wearing white/a veil never arose for me but neither did it appear to be an issue for our priest as he never asked anything about what I was planning on wearing!) and then proceeded to tell me the story.

The journey - ups and downs, questions, doubts and certainties - is the important thing.

We are absolutely "singing from the same hymn sheet" there JCS!!

And as for the bride, as long as she wasn't made to feel "unworthy" and was happy with the outcome, then I guess no harm done, although I've never heard of that happening before. I must confess (no pun intended) that I didn't even know the veil symbolised virginity tbh!!

The stuff about wilful disregard is still a difficult one for me personally though (and others I know) particularly with regard to the issue of contraception. I have in the past been on the pill and would again if I wasn't still ttc. The last 3 priests I've discussed this with recently haven't seemed too worked up about it tbh and although they haven't sanctioned it openly, they have without question done so implicitly, even in the confessional. Only my personal experience though!!

Tommy the "It's ok to sin, as long as you go to confession" comment should have had a huge next to it, but as for everything else I posted, I would really like to be corrected.

AS I'm not Catholic, maybe I shouldn't have posted , but it's a subject I'm very inetested in ATM, and have been talking to our local priest, and and DH's family about Catholicism

As I said earlier, I think there are a lot of misconceptions about the Catholic faith, and anything that clears them up can only be good. Sorry if I've added to those misconceptions.

Countingthegreyhairs for pope I say! Her exposition of transubstantiation helps with theological explanations but I think many non Catholics are fascinated by the sexual morality of Catholics ie contraception/ divorce etc This is a very small part of it yet gets all the attention.

I'm a Catholic, baptised, brought up, kids baptised, being brought up etc so what follows is intrinsic in me, rather than learned so possibly doctrinally dubious in places

The core of Catholicism is the absolute respect for the absolute dignity of the human being: this is why the death penalty is as repugnant as abortion, why users/ customers of sex workers are doing wrong etc: but also why the ideal is to "hate the sin/ love the sinner".

The point about sex is that it is a full expression of human love with the possible creation of human life as a logical but not inevitable conclusion. Therefore anything that prevents conception artificially is wrong but to choose to abstain is not.

When we marry we do so for life, irrespective of whta may happen (richer/ poorer etc) so life means life unless there are grounds for considering the marriage was invalid in the first place and so grounds for an annulment (the main grounds for which are non-consummation or emotional immaturity of parties and so inabilityto have made the decision in the first place)

I'm a bit ambivalent about some teachings but they inform my life eg sex before marriage in the context of a loving relationship is rather different from one night stands/ recreational sex.

It seems to me that in an increasingly materialistic world the dignity of each individual as an equally valid person in the eyes of God and an institutional recognition of the danger of arrogance are good things in themselves.

Mass each week is frequently irritating but the communal act of hearing the gospel preached to all people from all backgrounds is a refreshing break from normal concerns and pullsyou back to the core questions of your being.

The institutional conservatism of the Church is not necessarily reflected in all its priests and members: my 81 year old friend who has been a nun for 60 years and has taught in Ireland, England, Nigeria and Kenya would put Tony Benn to shame.

It's no accident that Catholics are so disproportionately represented in the public services: personal aggrandisement/ wealth is not, in itself an end.

To simplify matters too far, Margaret Thatcher could never have been a Catholic an dthe greatest commentator on her, Hugo Young, was a catholic (albeit a human one, with doubts like the rest of us)

I am a Catholic.My ex husband was violent and I left him and later divorced him.

When I met my second husband I started living with him as I thought the Catholic church would not have me being divorced and I could not consider marrying anywhere but in the Catholic church.I also wanted a child and got pregnant.When I asked the local priest if he would baptise my child he agreed to marry me and I had my 1st marriage annulled by the church because of the very difficult circumstances.

So to answer your question.

I do think in certain circumstances its ok to divorce and I dont use contraception but after a three difficult pregancies the priest said that God wants me to be be healthy for my family so my dh is going for snip!

Bless you my children

Crikey, yes, Pofaced - couldn't see the wood for the trees there - as you say, the core of Catholicism is respect for the absolute dignity of the individual human being - that's THE most important bit really ....just a slight oversight there !!!!

might have to hold off writing those encyclicals for a few more years yet ....

What a moving post ChocolatePeanut. Great to hear positive things about the church for a change ...

(t's not true that women who have terminations are always excommunicated.

I use contraception. So did my mother. In our consciences we are absolutely happy that what we do is in the best interests of our marriages. Marriage is a sacrament--we do what we can to preserve it.

I hate a lot of the church's teaching on family planning. (I also hate a lot of the well-meaning, left-wing, happy-clappy propaganda emanating from the English bishops.) I just ignore it and try and concentrate on what matters: the life and teachings of Jesus Christ. Catholicism is a good corrective to the materialism afflicting our society. Money won't make you happy and if you go to Mass regularly you will meet people who, by worldly standards, are 'poor' but have something about them, dunno, a kind of grace.

If something goes wrong in your life, Catholicism is the religion to help you. It's the religion for people who are sinners. If you're naturally good, you can be an Anglican.

PandaPanda

Jesus died on Calvary.

Calgary is a resort in Canada where they had the winter Olympics a long time ago.

It's also a typo in a book about the US cavalry a friend of mine read...

mmm... you do the theology, I'll do the social bit...

but seriously, I am always surprised at how surpriswed non Catholics (espec in US) are about the death penalty: personally Sr Helen Prejean (?) played by Susan Sarandon in Dead man Walking made me much prouder than Mother Teresa ever did..

And also funnily enough tonight DH (non catholic) & I were talking about various friends and how they had behaved when we had a very public trauma and noted that Catholic friends had displayed solidarity through calls/ texts etc while non Catholic ones had felt too akward to get in touch for a while...

So for the non_catholics out there, it's about individuals, solidarity and community...