If you are a Catholic please tell me something ...

[Elf]

Hello, I 've been thinking about religion a lot recently and to be honest I'm not sure exactly what Church of England people believe in either but I am interested in the Catholic faith for this thread.

Could you tell me a few things that defines Catholics and whether you believe in these things.

For instance I think, but am not 100% sure, that Catholics are not allowed to use contraception, including condoms, nor get divorced. Now do you think this is a good idea?

If you do fine, but if you don't, can you still call yourself a Catholic even if you don't agree with these things? And other things as well which as I said I don't know about but I am sure there are more "sins" which must be hard to not do in 2008.

You can probably tell my opinion but I am genuinely interested in this situation. Thank you very much.

Catholism if def a good religion for people who constantly make mistakes . My bro is in Calagry atm doing stuff for his phd. Obviously the brains in our family have not been evenly distributed

Nickytowtimes, To quote from afore mentioned book "Catholicism for Dummies"

"In the eyes of the Catholic Chruch, abortion is mortal sin. The sin of abortion may incur an automatic excommunication (canon 1398)for everyone involved - the mother and father of the aborted child, the doctor and nurse, and anyone whose cooperation was needed to perform the abortion.

The local bishop has the autority to remove most excommunication, but many bishops delegate this power to all their parish priests when it involves a penitent confessing the sin of abortion. This way, the person going to confession can simultaneously have the sin absolved and the excommunication lifted.This is to make it easier for people to go to confession and reconcile themselves with God and the Church, epecially after a very emotional, personal and serious matter, such as abortion."

Bridie, when I was 13, I was in a classroom which was normally occupied by 6 year olds and got a great laugh out of reading their copy-books! They had to write an essay on the crucifixion and one little lad started with
"I am the leader of the Calvary" The rest of it was funny as well "Quick, get Jesus up on that cross, here are the nails!" etc.

I'm sort of a lapsed Catholic wherein I believed, didn't, now believe but don't go to church lapsed Catholic.

I went to Catholic school all of my life and I felt as though I belonged to a much bigger family which is what the catholic faith believes in and I felt comforted by this unity.

During one of my lapses as a Catholic, I was going through a really rough patch and literally ran to the priests house. He heard my confession and we talked and it was like going home. I felt so much better about things and it gave me clarity and a real sense of direction and purpose and I got myself back on track.

The preists forgiveness and indeed the 'forgiveness' in the Catholic faith is overwhelming and powerful.

Not sure where I'm going with this but anyway...

It's no accident that Catholics are so disproportionately represented in the public services: personal aggrandisement/ wealth is not, in itself an end.

For example, Catholics make up about 10% of the population (although I think it's slightly more now with the influx from eastern Europe) but make up about 25% of the Army. The ideals of service before self, duty and integrity are very compatible with Catholicism.

The last 3 priests I've discussed this with recently haven't seemed too worked up about it tbh and although they haven't sanctioned it openly, they have without question done so implicitly, even in the confessional. Only my personal experience though!!

But there's a difference between what you're saying and "willful disregard". If you're confessing/discussing the issue of contraception with a priest, then it's clearly something you're trying to reconcile with that "higher ideal" you mentioned earlier.

I'm talking about the type of person who - perhaps - believes in divorce (and is divorced) and has no problem with that (not that they should have a problem if the divorce was the best thing for them at the time) but then gets in a strop because they're refused the right to remarry in a Catholic church. Or someone who doesn't practise but then gets upset that the priest expects them to at least attend mass for a few weeks before they get married/get their baby christened.

I'm not talking about people who have made hard choices over what's best for them and truly deliberate over how it's going fit with a genuine practising of their faith.

Does that make sense?

Thanks again everyone for your discussion.

I'm getting some more idea here about what Catholicism means though not totally I think. I still think the community aspect is great but have real problems with the other bits.

Transubstantiation - CTGH - thanks for explaining that to me. So are you saying that because the Priest has consecrated the bread and wine, you really believe that it is then the body and blood of Christ? It seems that this is a huge part of the faith but to an outsider does seem hard to truly believe that whereas it being just a symbol makes sense.

Also, this may put the cat among the pigeons but I really am interested in this bit too and sorry that it is about sex again. I believe, though couldn't quote sources, that either this pope or the one before, or both, I can't remember, took an active part in hushing up and protecting priests who were child abusers. How do you reconcile yourselves with this fact? And I hope this tone isn't aggressive, I truly am interested in how people can revere someone who has done so wrong.

The child abuse issue is a thorny one for most - if not all - Catholics. We all know that it was wrong, and we all know that any cover up was equally wrong. I'm not sure about the Pope actively condoning cover-ups but I know that several bishops certainly covered up instances of abuse within their dioceses.

However, it should be said that hindsight is always 20-20, isn't it? Child abuse has always happened in society but, until recently, it was one of those taboo subjects that no one ever spoke about. Most institutions (children's homes, schools as well as churches) where abuse has now come to light tried to cover up the scandal in the past.

I think the Catholic Church has got more of a pasting over the cover up because of type of people perpetrating the abuse - priests andnnuns we were supposed to look up to and respect as having a higher calling than the rest of us. There have been various scandlas over the past few years of local authority homes that covered up years of abuse (take, for example the current investigations in Jersey) as well as schools and other institutions for young people.

Without condoning or excusing the attitude that thought it permissable to cover all this up, I think the Church's actions have to be seen in the wider context of a society that wasn't ready to face up to its taboos and demons until a few years ago.

Chipmonkey--har! This is obviously a widespread blooper.

I can tell you that probably the safest institution for children in this country would be the Catholic church. I play in a church music group and am under huge pressure to go to a child protection training day just IN CASE I am ever left in the hall for minutes with any of the children or vulnerable adults. I've already been CRB checked for my role of putting out the felt-pens for the Sunday school.

I'm ducking out of the training day because I don't have time, with two jobs and two children plus voluntary work. If they press me I will have to leave the music group. The standards are very high.

Of course, what's ironic is that the cases of lay women (ie, mothers who help out) abusing any children were probably non-existent. But it's now got to the stage where I am my friends don't volunteer because we know that we'll be sent on training courses/have to fill in more forms/get more references. And we don't have time. It's a sad side-effect.

JCS - yes - absolutely DOES make sense ....
Agree point about people who want to get married in a church making a bit of an effort to attend!

Divorce issue not so black and white, because this happened to a close friend of mine who is a devoted Catholic, who really lives her faith - she runs (tirelessly) a team of volunteers assisting the elderly etc etc -she was refused the right to remarry in church and it hurt her profoundly.
But totally agree with yr. overall point!

Elf - the child abuse scandal in the Catholic church - and the cover ups - is totally indefensible and inexcusable. Personally I think the traditional structure and male dominated hierarchy of the Church(as JCS has already alluded to) helped to perpetuate it.

Again, the hierarchy is something I struggle with and is a contributing factor as to why attendance figures are dwilling, and will continue to do so (in my personal view) unless it is willing to devolve power and control down to the laity.

You've struck the nub of the issue when you query transubstantiation ... it is a difficult one ... again I'm not really qualified to explain but I think Paul Tillich (much revered theologian of twentieth c.) offered a good explanation when he distinguished between a "sign" (something which offers factual information) and a "symbol" which in his view is more active than just offering factual information; the fact that we are participating in it makes it active and sacred, ie it becomes (transubstantiates) in to something much more than just purely symbolic ...

Does that make any sense at all?
... Any theologians out there? I'm in over my head here .....!!

I am a ex catholic and so is my DH. I find people who claim they are catholics and then go against the teachings annoying if I am honest. Why have sex before marriage, use birth control, get divorced etc and still smugly say you are a catholic. No you are not.....

The teachings are very clear for this religion. You cannot just pick and choose the ones you will follow.

I think that is quite a 'fundamentalist' view Rocky. They'll always be people who pay "lip-service" to one religion or another, who just go through the motions, but who knows what form their personal relationship with God takes? Or their individual reasons for identifying themselves with a certain religion or not. Being a Catholic (in my view) is about a whole lot more than ticking off a set of rules related to one's personal sexuality. And who are we to judge anyway?

Tbh though, I think many Catholics do examine their consciences quite closely about various issues. Most of my acquaintance happily embrace the majority of the rules but struggle with others. That's only human surely?

In that case I have a straightforward question. Do you still get into heaven if you disobey the laws?

Finding this thread very interesting, thank you.

As an Anglican though Bridie3, it's a little annoying to have stuff chucked about on the Cofe - 'left-wing, happy-clappy' is in my view quite often a contradiction. The 'happy-clappy' element, certainly in the CofE, is IME likely to be more conservative in social attitudes and politics, while being a lot more radical in personal attitudes. There's also such a thing as 'happy-clappy' or charismatic Catholics as far as I know, isn't that right?

Naturally good = Anglican - what on earth??

Do you still get into heaven if you disobey the laws?

I dunno! It depends!

Not taking the piss honestly. I just personally don't view my religion in that way. I don't see it as a formula
ie if I do (a) then I will reach (b).

If I did then my religion would be all about 'me' which is not really the point of Catholicism and second because I prefer to place more of an emphasis on issues other than 'rules' and what people can or cannot do.

For example, I personally believe that the genuine love shared between a long-term same sex couple is a thing of great value and that there are many more important things in the world to worry about (children starving, people dying of AIDs)

I'm personally a bit uncomfortable with the view that if someone doesn't fulfil every single letter of every law of Catholicism then they do not deserve to be a Catholic. Largely because, we are all sinners, we are all doubting and failing to one degree or another. I'm not even sure the Pope would qualify with those strict criteria (no offence intended!)

Also (again just my personal view) I think sometimes people have a tendency to cling to a set of rigid rules because there is "comfort" in it. Eg If I follow a set of prescribed rules then I will go to heaven/be safe/ be "saved". But I personally don't think being a Catholic is a very comfortable thing at all. Quite the opposite sometimes. And that's the beauty of it too.

Still hoping that someone with a better understanding of all this than me will come and help me out here .....please .....

Just re-read my last post and I think the point I was trying to get across - badly - is that despite holding liberal views it is still possible to hold the church and it's sacraments in great reverence.

Choosyfloosy--I was referring to the Catholic Bishops of England and Wales!

LOL at naturally good = Angican as well!!

Went to an Anglican church in one of the richest parts of Surrey last week and they had a collection for Burma, we watched incredulously as this incredibly rich congregation managed to raise a mere handful of coppers!! Still shouldn't judge!!

As for dwindling congregations in Catholic churches, not around here they are not! lucky to get a seat at all some Sundays.

Don't know where the idea came about that Catholics don't do 'charismatic' or 'happy clappy' either, they certainly 'do' here!!! (one can hardly get into the children's liturgy room for all the jumping up and down and spinning around going on!) although I would quite happily celebrate the Mass in Latin given the chance.

My faith gives me a moral framework and an 'ideal' to aim for, the Catholic Curch could easily bow to populism on sticky subjects but it stays true to what its beliefs are and provides a safety net, in the form of confession for those who are unable to live up to its high expectations all the time.

As for Transubstantiaion it says in my old Good News bible that Jesus said "Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you can have no life in you", he also said "This is my Body" and "This is my Blood", not this is a symbol.....

ah sorry!

I have to say that I agree with COuntingthegreyhairs "But I personally don't think being a Catholic is a very comfortable thing at all. Quite the opposite sometimes. And that's the beauty of it too." It is this discomfort that should make us want to address that which lies behind the discomfort and work to overcome it. It is the support network within the Catholic Church that enables us to strive for the ideal that is set for us, and it is that support network and feeling of family that is bringing in converts from other branches of Christianity. I love, and I hope live, my faith and I feel that I wouldn't be the woman I am without the strength of my beliefs behind me and that is why I am proud to call myself Roman Catholic.

As someone who served in Hitler's Youth Army and worked in a concentration camp, I think the current Pope is hardly the right person to set moral standards, is he?

As opposed to the adulterous divorced soon to be head of the Anglican Church?

While Pope Benedict did serve in the Hitler Youth (not the hitler Youth Army), it ought to be pointed out the membership of that organisation was compulsory for boys of a certain age.

Equally, it is a matter of public record that his wartime service was with an anti-aircrat unit, not in a concentration camp. Germany (like the UK) did have conscription too, you know.

The following article from the Times gives a brief outline of the Pope's time in Nazi Germany:

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/article382076.ece

My priest says he is well aware that most of his congregation use contraception, I dont think he even considers it a sin now within a loving relationship or marriage.

You can get an anulment under special circumstances, and even if you get divorced you can still take communion unless you start another relationship in which case you cant because the church still sees you as 'married'

I have spent quite a few weekends here it was the one the BBC used their series the Monastery which i think was the best publicity the catholic church have had in years.
Apparently its all about conscience (sp?), if you can live with your decisons, acknowledge they may have been wrong, repent, and justify them to god then thats it.