Is this a commonly held view within Christianity?

[ohfook]

I appreciate this post shows my ignorance somewhat, but this is something I've been curious about for years.

My parents raised me as a Christian and would describe themselves as very religious. Their belief system could be summarised as they believe that god is love, we don't need to worry about hell because god forgives and that all religions are just different paths to the same destination and it should be possible for them all to coexist.

I was much older when I realised that other Christian's take a far more bookish/learned approach to the religion. In particular an ex of mine had parents who knew the bible to the letter. They said a lot of things that totally contradicted the belief system that I'd been brought up in. One thing they said really stuck in my mind. They believed that the when the Antichrist came, he'd bring seven years of peace to the Middle East first and people would think he was a hero?

I was just wondering if a lot of people believe this? Mainly because if I was a politician, it would really put me off getting involved because I wouldn't want people to think that about me.

So no, @eyestosee I don’t think it requires any ‘academic’ strengths, just a basic curiosity and access to the internet.

@Crichel, one can come across a massive amount of opinions on scriptures from the internet. People need to be able to discern which of those opinions is valid. People also need to have an experimental understanding of faith for it to truly be transformative.

As an aside, you sound like you have more than a surface knowledge yourself and yet you are an atheist. That's not the sort of Biblical understanding I seek. So I pray for understanding according to God's will and believe in faith I will receive this as it is God's will I understand according to His will. 🙂

Experiential not experimental.

I think this scripture is particularly apt regarding the topic of academia and faith.

"26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:" (1 Corinthians 1:26-28 KJV)

' By faith alone are ye saved , lest any man should boast'. Except in the Greek it says ' by faith are ye saved etc..' Luther adds a word here which seems to exclude the importance of Works.

And then Calvin threw out a few books? He was sorely tempted to bin Revelation apparently. This is why we must read scripture in the light of reason.

Really, if you don’t see that regarding knowing basic facts about the genesis of the text you base your worldview on as ‘academic’, or some unnecessary frill, I can’t help you.

@Crichel I'm talking about balance here. All sorts of people from all sorts of backgrounds come to Christianity as they are and then there is a journey of faith. To exclude some based on some idea concerning their 'inadequate scholarship' doesn't cut it. People can be surprising.

This is why we must read scripture in the light of reason.

@Abhannmor, and we do. Again I am talking about balance. Some seem to put too much emphasis on being scholarly. Faith does not have a hierarchy involving theology degrees and post grad qualifications. Don't forget that it was many of the scribes and Pharisees that plotted against Jesus.

I think we should remember the early Church, believers had no written Bible as we do, it was word of mouth. Faith was by hearing the word, not reading it. Most people coming to faith were just common folk, they'd gather together to eat, pray and share the Word.

I am finding theology very interesting but it's almost a luxury, because no-one is pursing me, throwing me in prison for my faith or preventing me having a Bible, so I have time to do it, the Internet and books for resources plus a knowledgeable pastor who does have a PhD in theology. I don't expect a theology exam at the Pearly Gates though! If Jesus knows me, that's enough!

@AlteredStater indeed!

' By faith alone are ye saved , lest any man should boast'. Except in the Greek it says ' by faith are ye saved etc..' Luther adds a word here which seems to exclude the importance of Works.

@Abhannmor, yes, because, as James writes here:

"14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead." (James 2: 14-17)

So regardless of what Luther was talking about, it is plain to see that faith should produce works. That is by believing in faith we are transformed by God's grace so that we are motivated towards doing good works.

And it's something I notice in my own emotions also.

Someone mentions the possibility of people calling themselves Christians not being saved, I feel it. I feel compassion towards them, heartbroken that people might not be saved and a shared concern that I am firstly encouraging in terms of people coming to faith and secondly I don't cause of the type of offence that could put people off coming to faith. I also feel the importance of the reassuring type of faith that God can reach people no matter how impossible it might seem to us.

Someone being critical over people negligently and stupidly neglecting good scholarship causing them to misunderstand God so badly that it causes hindrance to themselves and others, I feel it. I feel compassion towards those accused. Not everyone has a background of good scholarship. I feel the injustice of that. I also feel the ever present temptation of pride in the ether that can come when you feel you have understood something well through being well read. And then looking down on others without the same understanding. I also feel compassion towards those who are just starting out on a faith journey and maybe are feeling daunted and overwhelmed when people talk about their intimate knowledge of whole libraries of books like this is vital towards any degree of understanding.

So yes, I speak about these things and in real life I aim to be encouraging in what I say and do to help others. Faith and works. Without a vast knowledge of the different doctrines and arguments of all the different denominations on this subject. Or knowing Hebrew Greek and Latin. Although these things, of course, are very interesting indeed.

There is very little that is agreed across all of Christianity - like all faiths, it varies widely by time and place and continuously changing. There has been diversity in thought since before it developed out of Judaism, as seen in the conflicts between Peter and Paul described in the texts and the many debates on what is heresy found in the writings of early church leaders. That's before getting into the mess translation issues and edits of the texts that have happened over time has done, as others have mentioned, and the many texts we've lost along the way or only have fragments left (still weeps for the Gospel of Judas).

Antichrist only appears a couple times in the Epistles of John and it doesn't generally refer to a specific individual, but a descriptor for those that oppose Christ or deny the Son and the Father. That's why 1 John discusses that 'now many antichrists have come'.

1 John does make the claim that the many antichrists is a sign of the end of times that the author viewed himself to be in, but any connection of those antichrist to beast in Revelation, the lawless one in 2 Thessalonians, or to writings in any other Biblical text that is taken as referring to end of times is a significantly later interpretation by groups that try to apply univocality and literalness onto the many writings and authors of what eventually became the Bible. Some Christian groups do that, some do not. Some take Revelations to be literal prophecy, some take it as poetic coded writings around the oppression of Rome (the beast that is now associated with the antichrist has long been associated with Nero).Some Christian groups very much focus on the various end of times discussion - it's been argued Paul was one of them and this comes and goes in popularity. For some, anything to do with end of times is very insignificant part of their faith, if it shows up at all.

It's like how some Christian groups take Romans 9 and the 'objects of wrath to be destroyed' literally and make the concept that God chooses who is saved and makes people to be destroyed a big part of their faith & connect it with other parts of different texts with similar language while other groups view that part more on what God could do, but doesn't or just treat it as Paul's writings to Romans which are specific to them and/or are overridden by what is discussed on the topic in the Gospels by Jesus (while most do, not all Christian groups treat Paul's writing as Divinely inspired, some have even argued he's a false prophet that Jesus warned about).

Imho one of the best summaries of the faith / works connection is Titus 2 v 11-14.

“For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age, looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.”

Most Christians don't take the Bible as a literal document. I don't recall the topic you've raised ever being a major passage/theme to study.

I think all this talk of being saved / not saved is quite disturbing. My friend's daughter joined an Evangelical church and was quite frantic with worry about my friend not being saved. It affected her mental health imo. Thinking one is in a special caste and others are damned seems like spiritual arrogance to me. I can't think of anything more likely to turn people away from Christianity.

Thinking one is in a special caste and others are damned seems like spiritual arrogance to me. I can't think of anything more likely to turn people away from Christianity.

@Abhannmor, indeed, I have a problem with it too. I think it absolutely heartbreaking to imagine anyone being damned. I find having hope over others in all sorts of ways very important to my faith. I think this hope can also be connected to forgiveness. Forgiving can make having hope over someone changing for the better easier. If someone doesn't forgive they might never appreciate the small changes for the better. If there is no forgiveness the person in need of it might have no hope for themselves.

Regarding hope I remember this scripture:

"26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”" (Matthew 19:26 NIV)

On the flip side maybe some people actually need a deterrent in order to actually consider altering behaviour which they see as benefitting them even if it hurts others. Deterrents are deemed important within the justice system and law enforcement. However I still don't like to think of it.

I agree. I don't think anyone has the right to tell others they are doing religion "wrong"

The way I see it is that everyone (of faith) has a personal relationship with God. That will probably look different to someone else's. But it's just that, personal and not for others to judge.

I remember watching an historical drama as the plot dealt the subject of heresy.

'Bring to repentance', was the phrase used to justify all sorts of atrocity.

Chilling.

Just remember, those of us who by God's grace alone are saved are not a 'special caste' and indeed should never think of ourselves in that way, because we too were lost until we heard the Word and believed it. That doesn't make us special. If anything it should make us want to spread the good news so that others are saved, too. I feel very humble to be one of the Lord's sheep. I could have just wandered on and on, lost.

Telling someone else they are damned is really a horrible thing to do and not at all the way to approach someone, hoping they too will accept Christ as their Saviour. I know I would have been totally put off by someone who approached me that way! In fact that brings back a memory to me, when I was mid-20s and a Christian by then, at a student hostel. A group of Christians arrived and promptly waylaid everyone they could and started preaching the gospel in a very pushy way. One tried that with me, I said I was already a Christian, and instead of smiling at me and saying 'hello sister' or somesuch, he just abruptly and rudely turned away and started on some other poor soul. That is not the way to go about evangelising! It was like he was trying to rack up points by converting people.

Reminds me of the Palestinian guy who described being ' evangelised' by an American woman. He told her ' look it's OK I'm already a Christian' to which she replied ' How wonderful. When did you convert?'
His remote ancestors were Christian 2000 years ago. But no doubt he is doing it all wrong in the eyes of her sect.

@Abhannmor & @AlteredStater, it does serve to remind me how much our expectations of other people can be wrong but also how we are still learning. No one knows it all and we should acknowledge this but we can still learn from each other if we are open to it.

The third chapter of John is a great eye-opener on these themes. Our Lord’s teaching delivered to Nicodemus, by night. Sublime.

'Grace alone' isn't universally accepted across the board by all Christians, just fyi.

The RC church does refer to hell and holds it is real, consisting of eternal separation from God.

The RC church does not adopt a literal interpretation of Scripture. It is a prima scriptura religion as opposed to a sole scriptura religion. That doesn't reduce the whole Bible to the level of a fictional tale. The RC church therefore is open to the idea of evolution. The question of whether Noah's Ark existed or whether this story is a way of describing a climate crisis and evolutionary bottleneck to people used to sagas, myths, and other storytelling forms is not one the RC church has issued an opinion on. Genesis 7:1-5 is often part of the Easter Vigil liturgy of the word as it is an example of God's saving love and his forgiveness.

The RC church offers sacraments as a means of grace as well as works (faith vs works was a large element of the Reformation debate, with Reformation churches opting for grace alone, to put things extremely simply). Basically, in the eyes of the RC church, nobody can ever assume they're saved (while others are not). The emphasis on being saved (justified) once and for all time is an evangelical tenet. The RC take on salvation/ justification is that baptism starts you on a journey toward justification/ righteousness, which you can freely choose to take part in or not. Catholics are asked to walk humbly with God. Your embrace of the sacraments of the church will confer grace upon you to stay the course. Grace is freely offered by God, and there is nothing a human can do that would ever merit justification/ salvation.

Yes I'm aware. :)

It's interesting as a recent bible study I attended we talked about Hell, and whether God is there or not (I'm not RC as is probably blatantly obvious!). Since God is everywhere, then it means yes He is also in Hell, but what isn't in Hell is His love, His forgiveness, His light. What is there is God's wrath. So Hell would be eternal separation from all God's characteristics apart from His wrath.