Non-Christians - what do you know about Jesus ?

[Babybirdmum]

Atheists, agnostics, maybe raised as a Christian’s but not that into it…
I am just interested to see what ideas you have about Jesus. I was talking about it to my dad the other day and I said that I felt that a lot of people think Jesus is a made up fairytale, they don’t realise he is an actual historical figure.

Without faith there is no moral core.

"Do unto others as you would have done to you" was not invented by Christianity, so would you say your moral core is non-Christian?

@Babybirdmum Have you read Jesus on Trial?

I was raised more-or-less CofE, and went through a properly religious phase in my teens. Like a pp, I am (or was) also an archaeologist. Jesus probably existed, or someone tantamount to the person we have these unreliable historical records of.

I’m sorry, but even atheist scientists do not agree with that, which is why they theorized the Big Bang, as there needs to be an origin due to the laws of physics. A common rule of thumb in physics is that things exist if they occupy a volume (space) for a period (time) and carry energy.

Knowing about Him and knowing Him are two very different things.

It is very possible to know lots about Him while never having begun to know Him.

I know it was an Old Testament idea.

Jesus is not really a historical figure.

Personally my guess would be that he or someone like him DID exist as that's how stories begin.

But there are no eye witness accounts and records that should be there are not.

People usually tell me "but some travellers told a man who wrote it down that they had heard rumours of believers calling themselves 'christos'.

Aside from that being 3rd or 4th hand it still proves nothing. They didn't say they have met Jesus or anyone who had. No one is denying there was a small cult at the time with beliefs that later became the multitude of Christian churches.

As I say I think he was a real man. One clue that everyone should find interesting is in Matthew 21 (and elsewhere)

Jesus is about to enter Jerusalem and he tells the disciples he will wait while they go fetch a donkey for him to ride so people will believe it is the prophesy of Zechariah fulfilled.

Everyone knew about the prophesy of course so it was a good move to get the donkey and a real man trying to convince people he was a god was bound to do that.

It does not seem like something the church would have made up on purpose since it makes him sound like every evangelist trying to increase viewing figures/donations.

You can’t go bringing facts to a thread about whether the story of Jesus has any truth in it 🤣🤣

@Babybirdmum , if I don't take you up on various points that you make in response to me, it's not because I agree with you. But I can see that any counter argument, be it rational or emotional, you simply use to support your own beliefs. Which might be fine, but in many hands that sort of attitude does lead to religious intolerance.

I personally object quite strongly to the suggestion that because I do not align myself to your choice of religion, I have no moral core.

You can tell me, and the world, that it's "not gods will" that terrible things happen. Naturally, atheists will ask why, in that case, does this supposedly omnipotent and caring God allow things to happen? But you will give the usual answer - just that it's not gods will and these "bad" people are not following the true path - even when they might call themselves devout theists, of whatever persuasion, and use their interpretation of their sacred texts to justify their actions. What if their interpretations were correct and yours wrong? What if there is a god, and bad things happen precisely because that god wills it?

Now even though I apparently morally deficient by dint of not being religious, my moral sense would lead me to act if I felt something was wrong. And I'm just one small person. So sorry, but if God is omnipotent, and doesn't agree with something, then it's in God's power to do something about that, and I see precious little evidence of this.

(I know you'll have an argument to show why you think I'm wrong but no argument will persuade me!)

I see what you are saying, it’s a good point, I have also thought about that myself. We know the New Testament was definitely written after the old. We know some facts about Jesus that fulfill OT prophecies https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/advent-statistical-probability-jesus-fulfilling-messianic-george

25 individuals wrote about Jesus life from ancient times, but only 10 different individuals wrote records about Tiberius who was the Roman Emperor at the time. This is extraordinary since Jesus was just a carpenter. Do you also believe Tiberius didn’t exist?

That’s fine I’m sure you’re a very nice person, I didn’t mean you personally. I don’t know you, I was talking in a general sense

25 individuals wrote about Jesus life from ancient times, but only 10 different individuals wrote records about Tiberius who was the Roman Emperor at the time. This is extraordinary since Jesus was just a carpenter. Do you also believe Tiberius didn’t exist?

Lots of us on this thread are reasonably comfortable with the idea that someone called Jesus probably existed around that time, and that a branch of religion started up. It doesn’t mean we find it at all likely that he is the son of god.

You are strangely aggressive about this. I wouldn't expect your kids to give a shit about what I think but if you put their views on a discussion thread, its more than a little unreasonable to get your rage on about people discussing them

??? I’m not aggressive about this, I don’t give one shit let alone two so can’t summon the energy to be aggressive about it🤣. Gosh, you’d probably hate posts where I actually care about the content 🤷‍♀️. Some of my kids call themselves Christians and you say they are not. I’m guessing they’ll continue to call themselves whatever they want. Whatever.

And as per a poster above has pointed out, apparently it’s not Jesus. That’s not accurate. It’s something like Yeshu in Hebrew and Isho in Aramaic, although I may be slightly off in either or both. I’m told he would have likely spoken Aramaic at home in the area he lived but he would have been able to speak/understand Hebrew given the Jewish scriptures would have been delivered in Hebrew. So likely never called Jesus in his lifetime and he wouldn’t have known who the fuck you were speaking to if you called him that. Again, the ramblings of my kids which I tend to go with as one has spent way too many years studying this stuff in detail.

Thanks for this. I will look into that!

I am not disagreeing with any of that. I'm suggesting that there has been more than one "big bang", and more than one "big collapse". Hence why there is no requirement for a creator, or to create a universe out of nothing.

The origin of a universe lies in the demise of the previous. Chain them together, infinitely.

“doesn’t mean we find it at all likely that he is the son of god.”

I completely agree.

Such knowledge only comes as revelation from the God the Father.

I think he was a real historical person who did good things that then got exaggerated in the retelling.

Exactly. We don't know each other, but your faith led you to presume to lump me into a group of people with no "moral core".

Do you not see why this can be classified as religious intolerance?

"They don't believe. They're not as good as us. I know, let's run them out of town/tax them til they squeak/burn them!" said various followers of religion through the ages.

Paul McCartney wrote it, about his mother, Mary, who had died.

Just curious, why don’t you think it’s likely?

Why the post, OP? Are you hoping to evangelise?

I was raised under the umbrella of Christianity and always thought of the Bible stories as fables - a construct aimed to provide a message about being a decent person.

I firmly stopped believing in God/Jesus etc aged 9 when I found out about Santa. I suppose it probably didn’t help with Santa being Saint Nicholas and all the saints being in heaven with God and Jesus, but even now I think it’s the same concept - be “good” or you won’t get any “presents”(/eternal life). Of course you need a little bit of guilt/fear thrown in for good measure (if you don’t believe you won’t receive etc) too!

It was Paul and he was actually singing about his mother Mary who died when he was 14

Sorry if that’s how it came across it was not intentional

Gosh, you expend an awful lot of words and arguments on something you don't care about. Its almost as if you are bothered after all.

As for the strange digression about Jesus' name 😂 Talk about missing the point.

I am sorry you have clearly been so triggered by posting on a thread about Christianity where you talk about Jesus being deluded and having a mental illness and others disagree with you about that being a Christian teaching. It was an odd choice to post that when you would react like this, but there you go.

I am not a Christian btw. I just make the assumption that if people enter into a discussion with their opinions then they are happy for others to disagree and discuss with them. Clearly that was a wrong assumption in your case.

I suppose I want to have a discussion?

yes I can see you were raised to believe because of fear, that’s not a good foundation to have. If it’s any consolation I don’t believe in a devil with red horns, but more of the “devil within” ie human nature