Non-Christians - what do you know about Jesus ?

[Babybirdmum]

Atheists, agnostics, maybe raised as a Christian’s but not that into it…
I am just interested to see what ideas you have about Jesus. I was talking about it to my dad the other day and I said that I felt that a lot of people think Jesus is a made up fairytale, they don’t realise he is an actual historical figure.

It is interesting to see Jesus described by his critics as practicing witchcraft in the Talmud. Their criticism only adds to the idea that he was doing supernatural things (see relevant sources).https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sources_for_the_historicity_of_Jesus

That's interesting What is it about the teachings of the Eastern Orthodox church that made sense to you? I think I have heard that they don't believe in original sin. Is that correct?

I don’t have blind faith if that’s what you mean? I have thought throughout my life “why am I not a Muslim? Or a Hindu?” And I went and looked at the historical evidence from all religions and concluded that Christianity was the most likely. I also have had personal experiences such as answered prayers, I have read the bible which is fascinating the complexities of it, it isn’t just an old meaningless book, it’s very complicated, if it were made up I’d argue it’s the best piece of literature ever written due to its multilayered factors, how the old and new tie together, how Jesus fulfills prophecies. So yes I have had the emotional experience of faith but it is underpinned by the historical factual side too. I don’t just believe it for fun, it’s actually quite hard to have faith, you have to have a reason to truly believe it’s real. For some that’s miracles, for me it’s both miracles and historical data.

The current consensus is that just seven letters are commonly agreed to be authentically written by the apostle Paul -

1 & 2 Corinthians
Galatians
Romans
Phillippians
1 Thessalonians
Philemon

Even these have been meddled with. There is a good summary in Bart Ehrman’s Forged.

@Babybirdmum Yes, David Limbaugh is interesting. The problem is that he starts from the position of belief. So all his evidence is supporting that belief. He is not an impartial observer.

Out of curiosity what sort of evidence would you need to believe Jesus was real?

Real what, exactly? A real (non-divine) man whose story has been massively embellished...maybe that's there.
'Son of God'? First a bit of evidence not merely for any sort of deity but specifically the judaeo christian one.
One aspect of the Trinitarian god... quite a lot more evidence for the existence of that entity, which is pretty much entirely unsupported by the Bible and is really the product of a few centuries of theological development. (The one verse in the Bible which is overtly trinitarian is a late insertion).

Have you ever thought of the good things? The Romans used to believe in survival of the fittest, powerful men could take advantage of anyone weaker than them. Jesus introduced the idea that all life is valuable, the weak and the powerful, and no one should use another for their own advantage. This has shaped our current society, protect the vulnerable. If we lived in Roman times this would not be the way.

"Sorry, nothings 100% guaranteed, the pharmacist or nurse may have tampered with it. The infamous stepping hill nurse/murderer injected insulin into iv bags. My husband works at a pharmaceutical company, any of the people working there could tamper with the drugs."

"Just that we act with faith in everything we do so whilst no one can say the gospels are 100% guaranteed you just have to go with the best evidence and I believe the evidence is strong enough in favour of them being true."

We don't "act with faith in everything we do". I know that if I let go of a glass of water it's going to fall to the ground because of gravity. I know that you need a sperm and an egg to create a human baby. I don't "have faith" that the no.77 bus will take me to Waterloo station, and if it doesn't there will be a reason why not, not some mystery or miracle to explain.

The Bible of course references a litany of actual and real geographic locations, places and people. That’s why indeed you have archeological experts, in this precise field. But the bible historical fiction, it does not prove in any way that Jesus was the son of god, The Messiah himself, or that this messiah exists. These biblical texts were written by mortal men, who probably did believe what they were writing down, but just because someone says it’s true - and that’s ultimately how religion started out, and the stories got passed down from generation to generation, who to this day think, well if the bible says it’s true, true. No evidence required.

Also, in regards to your prayers being answered, how can you be certain that your god answered your specific pleas for help? Why you, and why not answer the desperate prayers of the millions of other people, throughout the world, some going through the most incredible suffering as we speak? How would this be proof of your gods existence?

I think the OP is conflating faith with trust. I trust the medicine dispensed by the pharmacist because I know through my education that it is science based, I trust that the manufacturer is strictly regulated and controlled so that the product fits the description, and I trust that the pharmacist is qualified and regulated to be an appropriate person for the job.

The OP has faith in a god and believes he answers prayers. That is absolutely her right, but it is a matter of faith (and probably shedloads of confirmation bias).

Of course. And there are good people, and bad, of every faith and none.

But there is no such thing as religious oppression, and no religious wars, without organized religion.

Do you believe in any sort of higher power?

None whatsoever

Are you more of a believer that the universe was an accident?

Not an "accident" as such, more a convoluted series of circumstance, and happy (for us) coincidences.

the universe exists within time, matter and space, and time matter and space all have a beginning

This doesn't necessarily follow. It's normal and understandable for humans to be prone to conceiving of time in finite chunks with a distinct beginning and end, because our lifespans are relatively short, and we organise our lives around fixed moments in time, specific hours of the day and so on. The problem with applying this to the origin of the universe is it presupposes there is only one universe, only ever has been one universe, and therefore something must have "created" it, if not just given it a "helping hand" to "begin".

It's entirely plausible that this isn't the only universe, or the first universe, or that this universe was not created out of "nothing", in fact, the assertion the universe was created out of "nothing" is highly implausible, which is why I believe our current universe is only the latest in an infinitesimal number of universes, and it's origins lie in the destruction of the previous one. If you accept infinity, then there is no requirement for a "beginning" and no need for a creator, helping hand, or anything to have existed "outside" the universe.

That last part is, in itself, an absurdity. The universe IS everything. Anything that exists does so within the universe. Things which do not exist can not will themselves into existence, and if there was something, an entity of some sort, which predates the universe, where was it hanging about? Since there is nothing, (because there is no universe yet, remember) there is nowhere for this entity to hang about. If it created the universe and the universe has a distinct "beginning", what was this entity doing before creating the universe, and why didn't it just create the universe a bit more promptly? These contradictions and absurdities can be resolved with one simple proposition - no such entity exists or ever has, because that's not how the universe "began".

Fair enough! You’re naturally a skeptic it’s a good thing. But when you take a medicine from the pharmacy, are you always 100% sure it’s not been poisoned? No! Otherwise you’d bring your chemistry kit to the pharmacy. Everything we do requires a little faith.

I can see what you're trying to do here, but there's a big difference between trusting a pharmacist and having faith in a religion.

https://thisvsthat.io/faith-vs-trust

I'm with @Birdscratch. Historical figure who had some radical ideas that were taken up with great enthusiasm but got him into trouble with the Romans as it must have seemed like a rebellion forming. Very successful cult leader. Imagine as middle Eastern.

I’m not saying all my prayers I’ve ever prayed have been answered, because they don’t all align with his will. But for example I prayed for my pain to go away and it did immediately, this has happened twice. My friend experienced a miracle as a result of her prayer. He is open to everyone who seeks him, but not everyone does. I can see you’ve touched slightly on the issue of suffering, and rightly so, we live in an unjust world and it’s not nice to think of others suffering. God agreed- the world is shit as it is and it never should be this way

Do you believe in the Trinity now?

What is it about the Eastern Orthodox Church with which you felt/ feel particularly comfortable?

i think you’ve touched on the idea yourself, when you say one universe created another, what about the first universe? Was that created as well? If so, it must be something that is infinite

We don't believe in original sin and many other Roman Catholic doctrines.

The St John Chrysostom Divine Liturgy and the prayers is what spoke to me most deeply. I can't describe it to be honest. It was just so amazing and seemed to be the language of the belief of what I'd always hoped Christianity to be, but had failed countless times to encounter in other churches. It was a taste of heaven on earth so to speak. I thought "THIS is Christianity!", and I was captivated. It was as though I was recognising and feeling at home with something I'd never even experienced before. I've been Chrismated now and sing the choir. St John Chrysostom must have been an amazing man to have the ability to speak so clearly through his Liturgy to cynical old me in the 21st Century. The Lord's work for sure.

There doesn't need to be a "first" universe.

Religious wars exist because men are flawed and want power. Non religious wars exist because men are flawed and want power.
Without faith there is no moral core. Your morality is based on your culture. The nazis moral we’re based on the culture at the time, often those saving the Jews were Christians with a moral foundation that edisted beyond the culture at the time

There does if they exist of space, matter and time according to physics

He wasn’t always a believer

No, there really doesn't.

We're talking about infinity, not a finite number of universes. There has always been a universe. It doesn't matter how far back in time you go, there will always be a universe prior to the one you are occupying, and one prior to that, and one prior to that, and so on and so on, infinitely.

I'm assuming it's deliberate to have all the mistaken Beatles stories on this thread, to show that as people who live about 40 -60 years after the Beatles were in their heyday, and just over 40 years since John Lennon died, have got multiple details of their lives wrong, misquoted them and muddled them up with each other. And that's 4 people who were as famous and documented as it us possible to be - certainly far more so than an itinerant preacher 2000 years ago.

Let’s say someone could “prove” Jesus was the son of god. Would you follow then, and if not, why?