Non-Christians - what do you know about Jesus ?

[Babybirdmum]

Atheists, agnostics, maybe raised as a Christian’s but not that into it…
I am just interested to see what ideas you have about Jesus. I was talking about it to my dad the other day and I said that I felt that a lot of people think Jesus is a made up fairytale, they don’t realise he is an actual historical figure.

I think the same. Being as a movement clearly did start, it seems far more likely it started from a preacher who actually existed than not.

I know some people ( not saying anyone on here is!) but I have heard people quoting Josephus as an eyewitness. He was actually born 3 years after Jesus died.

But personally, I don't think it really matters whether he existed or not.

I'm a Jew and I believe Jesus existed as a false messiah/heretic rabbi.

What are you hoping to get from this thread, OP? You seem quite eager to persuade people towards your own beliefs? I don't think you'll have much luck evangelising via MN!

Your starting point seems to be an assumption that non-Christians don't know about Jesus, and that's why they don't believe. But many of will be non-believers despite having quite a lot of knowledge. We just don't think the evidence stacks up.

He loved pagan festivals?

I think, OP, the more interesting question is why you want to show there is some other evidence or credible basis for believing Jesus existed.

Christianity is based on faith and it has to be because it requires Christians to accept miracles as core to their doctrine. We know resurrection is scientifically impossible but Christians believe it based on faith. So really there is no need to prove Jesus existed, because you choose to believe it regardless. Trying to prove his existence to nonbelievers by is impossible because we aren’t looking at this through the lens of faith.

I’m agnostic but have some kids (adults) who are Christian and I will happily go with their thoughts. That being that Jesus did exist, and was not the son of God per se but suffered mental illness where he actually believed he was. The period where he ‘disappeared’ in the Bible was likely Mary/Joseph sending him somewhere or hiding him when his mental illness would have become obvious I.e. no longer the ‘cute’ ramblings of a young boy. In that age people stoned the mentally ill, so basically his parents were trying to protect him. Mary/Joseph may have also publicly gone along with some of the stuff he said in a bid to protect him. Came a time where they had to give up, or thought he was better, and thus he pops up again in the Bible.

He did not perform miracles as such but things like being kind to the poor and sick, and giving them food and encouraging others to do so ‘cured’ them. It’s common sense giving starving sick people food will enable a recovery. My kids don’t believe the loaves/fishes stuff nor anything not scientifically possible. However, they believe that Jesus, mental illness aside, was a great man in that he had a good heart and encouraged others to do the right thing/good thing to all and are happy to follow that.

As an aside, they also believe his body was removed from the tomb when he was killed, maybe managed by Mary Magdalene with help from a few trusted others and moved elsewhere that was ‘safer’, as opposed to ascending to heaven. Hence he was not there after a few days. They believe he was somewhere near where his mother and Mary M ended up as supposedly his mother moved from her home town (dad was dead at that point), and Mary M went and joined her and they lived out their days together. It’s pretty odd that his mum would leave her home and the dead son’s girlfriend/friend/follower/groupie would just decide to go live with her from then on in a new place if neither had a connection to the new place so they guess that’s where his body ended up. Pity no one put covert surveillance on the pair at the time🤣.

Thats just the ramblings of my kids though. They are usually pretty cluey so I’ll go along with that😀.

Your kids are not Christians if they don't believe Jesus was the the son of God. That is the core defining belief of Christianity.

I think Jesus was created to make God seem less scary. The first testament is all about an eye for eye, gods wrath because people weren't good etc. Then Jesus comes along in the second testament and all of sudden people's sins are been forgiven, people should forgive others etc. In some ways I don't think God would be too happy about how much people love Jesus and he has become a Christian idol - not something the God in the 1st testament would be too pleased with.

I'm an atheist and think most of this stuff was made up to help the people in power control the masses. However, I do find it interesting how different God and Jesus are as characters

@HoppingPavlova What do your children call themselves? Obviously it can't be Christian-is it some other faith?

@Babybirdmum it wasn't Lennon who wrote that, it was McCartney. And the "Mother Mary" in the song wasn't the VIrgin Mary, it was his mum who had died when he was a teenager.

John Lennon was an avowed atheist btw.

Sorry for the Beatles derail.

I don’t know if there was an actual person. I kind of hope not. The disciples would have left behind their wives and children to follow him. It’s a decidedly poor start to a religion to see a bunch of men abandon their responsibilities.

There was a whole slew of anti-Roman activists around in that time and place, many of whom were also anti-Sanhedrin. Itinerant story-tellers were a significant feature in all societies, right up until the invention of mass media (books & newsletters). The more successful story-tellers were hugely famous and had fan clubs that joined them on their travels.

It wasn't unusual for such individuals to do miracles; they were great psychologists and showmen, the Derren Browns of their time. Judaea was double oppressed by the Romans (despite some pretty smart light-touch governance) and the rigidity of the Jewish religious governors. There was a strong appetite for persuasive messages of rebellion, with promises of a nicer life and better afterlife.

To see how that works today, you've only got to look at the strength of loyalty to Muslim leaders, evangelical preachers or African and Indian charismatics.

The Romans kept meticulous records of everything important, yet made no specific mention of Jesus until they started converting to Christianity. He wasn't an individual, but a fictionalised amalgam of the many preachers agitating for a reformed Judaism - in the end it wouldn't reform, but the reform movement branched off and developed into what was then an underground cult.

There is no mention of Nazareth in either Jewish or Roman records prior to the development of Christianity. Despite intensive efforts, no archaeological evidence of a settlement older than 2,000 years has been found there. The first writing to mention Nazareth is John's gospel, which was probably written after his death. Oh, and a 'carpenter' in that time and place was more likely to be a stonemason than a woodworker.

I think that there probably a man who was around at that time who had followers and claimed to be some sort of prophet, in fact I imagine that there were a few.
I don't think he was anything other than a cult leader and I doubt he was blonde and did half of the things attributed to him

I was waiting for the specious accounts of Josephus and Tacitus.
There are two passages in the Jewish Antiquities of Josephus that (in the present text) mention Jesus as a historical person but they are almost certainly interpolations made by Christian scribes. The first passage is called the Testimonium Flavianum which now reads as -
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who performed surprising deeds and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Christ. And when, upon the accusation of the principal men among us, Pilate had condemned him to a cross, those who had first come to love him did not cease. He appeared to them spending a third day restored to life, for the prophets of God had foretold these things and a thousand other marvels about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still to this day not disappeared.
This would clearly be an absurd paragraph from the hand of a devout Jew and sophisticated author who otherwise writes more elegant prose and usually explains to his readers anything strange. The passage is self-evidently a Christian fabrication derived from the Emmaus narrative in the Gospel of Luke.
The one other passage in Josephus that states -
The brother of Jesus (who was called Christ), the name for whom was James, and some others were tried and stoned by the high priest Ananus.
This entered the manuscripts of Josephus sometime in the late third century.

The Annals of Tacitus survives in only two manuscript traditions, one containing the first half, the other the second half, the section in between missing. There is another gap in the text: two whole years from the middle of 29AD to the middle of 31AD; that the cut is so precise and covers the year 30AD that early Christians regarded as the year of Christ’s ministry is too improbable to posit as a coincidence.

Paul’s letters predate the gospels and he mentions ‘Jesus’ or ‘Christ’ in his authentic letters 280 times but only shows knowledge of Jesus as a celestial being, not an early man. Never once is his baptism mentioned, or his ministry, or his trial, or any of his miracles, or any historical details.

Your kids are not Christians if they don't believe Jesus was the the son of God. That is the core defining belief of Christianity

Well they think they are. They believe in God, they think essentially it’s the same God as Jews and Muslims have as it all came out of the same area around the same time(ish). They believe in Jesus and believe they follow his principles so call themselves Christians as they follow his teachings. They just don’t believe he is the literal son of God, but that he truly thought he was, so not a case of him deceiving people as such. I’m not telling them what they are/are not.

I don't dispute that there was once a cult leader, they have always existed and the world still suffers from them now.

I do not believe any of the biblical stuff, but if anyone can show me actual, physical, authenticated proof I will consider it.

I don't go along with "It is in the bible so it must be true" any more than "It is in the Daily Newspaper Of Your Choice so it must be true."

@Babybirdmum , that he’d be properly pissed off with people who call themselves Christians and don’t behave like they are. And I’ve met a few. 😡

Not true about Josephus,.some scholars argue that a few words were added by Christian’s such as him being the Christ. But not the whole passage. He was making social commentary about the era he was born into which was influenced heavily by Jesus of Nazareth.

it’s the same as this … if I die and 40 years after my death 2 of my best friends write about my life. Another of my two best friend gets their friends who is better at writing to write about my life. Then someone who doesn’t know me personally, my neighbours son, writes about me. Then someone who’s heard people all over my hometown talking about me writes what they’ve heard. Would you think it was a fairly accurate account of my life? I would! Otherwise you’d have to throw away all biographies as they are written by someone else about a person.

@CurlewKate No, they call themselves Christians as they follow the teachings of Jesus. They belong to mainstream Christian churches. I think whenever the whole Angel/miraculous conception/rose to Heaven but is trotted out they just smile and nod but actually think ‘nope, didn’t happen like that’. One partakes in Bible studies and has done for many years (11 at this point), can quote every line and has probably analysed every line. They don’t believe all of it. They believe that when things are written down after the fact after a period of time, details are not always right. Doesn’t stop them believing God exists, or that Jesus was a great guy and they would like to follow his teachings.

I am willing to believe he was a historical figure. Not that he was a son of God or performed miracles.
I find him a bit boring and beige compared to the gods of my birth religion who are playful, have girlfriends, curse people and so on. Though I no longer practice any religion.

You don’t have to ‘throw away’ accounts to engage with them critically and acknowledge their limitations.

Hasn’t there been a growing consensus, by historians, that none of the Gospels were written by the named individuals? That they were also in fact written after Jesus death, and not even from first hand accounts? That in fact they had been written by anonymous authors?

He may have been someone that people told stories about. Like today's celebs but I don't believe hes a historical figure if he existed at all