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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Navigating Halloween

245 replies

AgileGreenSeal · 04/10/2024 08:34

Any Christian parents / grandparents here? How do you navigate Halloween in regards to your children?

OP posts:
Bogstandards · 09/10/2024 19:33

That's fair enough @MetalGearSystem, that's where the element of faith comes into play. For me, the Bible is trustworthy and although written by men it was inspired by God, through the Holy Spirit.

Words · 09/10/2024 20:03

I have stumbled into a parallel universe where occultism rubs shoulders with commercialised nonsense mixed with one of the modern day's most pernicious tropes - 'making memories' .

No dear, your 'kids' are irritating the hell out of your neighbours.

Bogstandards · 09/10/2024 20:07

Good point @Words.

Elderberrier · 11/10/2024 09:01

PrincessOfPreschool · 07/10/2024 03:09

I'm a Christian and I love Halloween. I love how people open their homes and give to strangers. It's more if a time of giving/ community than even Christmas which is so centred on family/friends and not everyone in the community. I love the creativity it brings out in costumes and the joy of the children.

Personally, Jesus is my role model. He always saw into the heart of things and behaved accordingly, regardless of religious 'restrictions'. Eating meals with prostitutes and tax collectors was OK, healing on the sabbath was OK. Things which sent the religious crowd into a frenzy! Peter later struggled with Jewish rules on food vs gentiles.

Of course it's up to your conscience but if you're not celebrating necromancy, and neither is anyone you know, then you are taking part in something which is a wonderful community event of giving and creativity. Only you know what's in your heart.

I joined at the start of this discussion and just returning. I love this post. OP I think this poster captures what spiritual practice is about - using your faith and approach to things to be a source of love and light in the world.

I mentioned earlier my mum had an attitude like you, and it was very oppressive for me as a child. Completely turned me away from Christianity as an adult. So unloving and cold to have these arbitrary rules connected to some lineage of ‘necromancy’ that has no bearing on present experience, when like the poster above, it’s possible to turn your mind in a direction of love and connection. I just don’t understand how it’s Christian to instead take your mind in the direction of disapproval and separation from others. Surely it’s possible with your connection to god to ask for his help developing an open and loving attitude to this experience, just like you would with any other experience that you are personally challenged by?

DeanElderberry · 11/10/2024 09:15

I'm in Ireland and the divination games I remember are - Barm bracks used to contain at the least a ring, which would predict who was doing to get married next, and in one case also a stick, a rag, a bean - other things - predicting wealth, travel, can't remember.

There was also peeling an apple and throwing the peel over your shoulder to see the initial of the man you'd marry.

A more sinister game that scared my mother when she was little involved a blindfold and saucers filled with water and soil and other things I'm not sure of, and the one that the blindfolded one touched when they reached out their hand told what would happen to them in the next year - water meant travel overseas, soil meant DEATH!

All pleasantly frightening and not taken seriously (except by the very young).

So that's divination.

Necromancy afaik was limited to stories about ghosts who came back with clues to buried treasure.

Ghosts in the Irish tradition were usually less sinister and dangerous than the fairies who were very unpredictable, but associated with the start of summer on May 1st, the other end of the year from Hallowe'en at the start of winter.

We didn't have witches at all.

All fun, nuts and apples and other stuff, are being discussed on a thread on Craicnet.

And then, most people would go to church on All Saint's day, and would visit graves and pray for the dead at some stage on the first three days of November, and would give up booze 'for the holy souls' (and to get ready for Christmas) and have other memorialising during the month.

Not a bad way to start winter, and, in the past, a chance to rest after all the hard physical farm work during the harvest season, and to sit round the fire and tell stories.

Namerchangee · 11/10/2024 09:24

Just remembered that the mother of an ex-bf of mine years ago would put a sign outside which read ‘this is a Christian household - do not knock on Halloween’. I knew I would never stay and have children with her son - imagine that for a MIL. Miserly doesn’t even describe.

DeanElderberry · 11/10/2024 09:24

Oh, and I don't remember anyone at either of the convent schools I attended (LC mid 70s) talking about anything demonic or satanic wtr Halloween - that only became a talking point across society when stuff from the American 'Satanic panic' - leaked back across the Atlantic in the early 80s.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_panic

DeanElderberry · 11/10/2024 09:30

Basically, anything anyone said to anyone about Satan or Ouija boards or the occult in or after 1980 probably ultimately came from American mass market paperbacks rather than from traditional religious teaching or from the historical record.

MarginallyBetter · 11/10/2024 09:32

DeanElderberry · 11/10/2024 09:15

I'm in Ireland and the divination games I remember are - Barm bracks used to contain at the least a ring, which would predict who was doing to get married next, and in one case also a stick, a rag, a bean - other things - predicting wealth, travel, can't remember.

There was also peeling an apple and throwing the peel over your shoulder to see the initial of the man you'd marry.

A more sinister game that scared my mother when she was little involved a blindfold and saucers filled with water and soil and other things I'm not sure of, and the one that the blindfolded one touched when they reached out their hand told what would happen to them in the next year - water meant travel overseas, soil meant DEATH!

All pleasantly frightening and not taken seriously (except by the very young).

So that's divination.

Necromancy afaik was limited to stories about ghosts who came back with clues to buried treasure.

Ghosts in the Irish tradition were usually less sinister and dangerous than the fairies who were very unpredictable, but associated with the start of summer on May 1st, the other end of the year from Hallowe'en at the start of winter.

We didn't have witches at all.

All fun, nuts and apples and other stuff, are being discussed on a thread on Craicnet.

And then, most people would go to church on All Saint's day, and would visit graves and pray for the dead at some stage on the first three days of November, and would give up booze 'for the holy souls' (and to get ready for Christmas) and have other memorialising during the month.

Not a bad way to start winter, and, in the past, a chance to rest after all the hard physical farm work during the harvest season, and to sit round the fire and tell stories.

I think the pea was for poverty and the bean was for wealth? The stick in our house was supposed to mean your husband would beat you, but that probably says more about our house...

We never played the game with the saucers, but it shows up in one of Joyce's short stories in Dubliners (the main character touches the clay for death, and all the other characters panic and cover it up) -- we did lots of apple-bobbing, and a mildly lethal game that seemed to be only played in our house, and which my friends adored, which involved a stick hung horizontally from the ceiling with an apple stuck to one end and a lit candle stuck to the other and set twirling, so you had to try to get a bite of the apple without burning your fringe off and without using your hands. (Very un-safety conscious dad... 😀)

Agree about fairies being trickier than ghosts, though we had a lot of local ghost stories my mother had been told in her childhood. Mostly famine-related ones, and ghost masses, where a passerby was asked to come into a church at night to serve mass, and glanced over his shoulder to see that the congregation consisted of all the dead of the parish. Woke up the next morning, thought it was a dream, but then his missing hat turns up inside the church.

And lots of (deeply Catholic) ghost stories about the devil trying to stop a priest getting to a deathbed with the blessed sacrament.

All then recuperated into All Saints day and the Month of the Dead.

I liked it as a way of entering into winter. Fun and a (slight fright) and fire and a lot of novelty food.

DeanElderberry · 11/10/2024 09:36

I like the ghost mass - a deeply Christian version of necromancy.

onetwothreehello · 11/10/2024 14:48

I think, as a Christian, regarding Halloween there is a precedent for celebration of a Christian festival but also there undoubtedly is also a Pagan element and traditions.

So how to negotiate that?

The age old question really. How did the church fathers negotiate that? They had a mission to spread the gospel amongst Pagan societies - some of which were very hostile towards different beliefs and practices. How did Christ interact with the gentiles? There are quite a few encounters which can be looked at.

It's a balance, isn't it? You've got to build good relationships and friendships without losing sense of what is important.

RareMaker · 14/10/2024 21:27

You realise that Christmas is more pagan than Halloween?

RareMaker · 14/10/2024 21:29

I don't understand light parties? The whole point is a seasonal turn. Seeds are planted in the dark, we grow inside a dark Womb etc it's a time for going inwards. It's not something to be scared of. We are not machines. We need rest.

onetwothreehello · 14/10/2024 21:37

@RareMaker Christmas is a Christian festival (clue in the name) and as a Christian that's what I celebrate. People celebrate the season according to their own beliefs, if you celebrate Yule or something else that is quite different to Christmas.

FuzzyPuffling · 14/10/2024 21:43

RareMaker · 14/10/2024 21:29

I don't understand light parties? The whole point is a seasonal turn. Seeds are planted in the dark, we grow inside a dark Womb etc it's a time for going inwards. It's not something to be scared of. We are not machines. We need rest.

It's Christ being a light in the.world, rather than a celebration of light in general.

Trailblazin · 14/10/2024 21:45

Halloween has roots in Christianity and ancient Celtic tradition. Maybe focus on the Christian side of things and go to a light party if it makes you feel better.

Personally I love it and it marks the turn of the seasons, and now it’s becoming more Americanised it’s fab to have a holiday all the kids get involved in and see everyone giving out treats to the children.

It’s the same with Christmas really. You can hark back to the days of the Romans or back to our Celtic roots where we enjoyed light and festivities during the long, dark winters.

Trailblazin · 14/10/2024 21:47

It is weird though that some people are so anti Halloween yet align themselves to an institution that happily burned ‘witches’ on the stake not to mention all the other true evils.

RareMaker · 14/10/2024 21:51

onetwothreehello · 14/10/2024 21:37

@RareMaker Christmas is a Christian festival (clue in the name) and as a Christian that's what I celebrate. People celebrate the season according to their own beliefs, if you celebrate Yule or something else that is quite different to Christmas.

Christmas tree, yule log. All Pagan roots.

onetwothreehello · 14/10/2024 22:01

@RareMaker no matter the roots you claim, the Christian meaning and symbolism for me is that which I choose to focus upon.

InWalksBarberalla · 14/10/2024 22:06

AgileGreenSeal · 06/10/2024 17:55

As I said divination and necromancy is traditional Halloween practice, not the Americanised ‘trick or treat’ sort of experience had by most people who celebrate it, particularly children.

In fact many party games associated with this night actually come from divination. No doubt most of those playing them are either unaware, or view it as ‘just a bit of fun’. It doesn’t matter, it’s still divination, and as such would be absolutely off limits to a follower of Christ.

Do you really think Christ was so joyless that he wouldn't enjoy some neighbourhood fun?

Hagr1d · 14/10/2024 23:26

I am a Muslim. We don't acknowledge it and I wouldn't encourage my kids to participate in it. This is because of its associations with paganism/the devil/evil spirits etc and the Druid new year. It's seen as satanic from an Islamic POV.

mathanxiety · 15/10/2024 00:00

FuzzyPuffling · 14/10/2024 21:43

It's Christ being a light in the.world, rather than a celebration of light in general.

I think people who started the light parties may have been unaware of the existence of fire in old Samhain celebrations. Either that or they're having a larf.

As a child in Ireland, we used to have a big neighbourhood bonfire in a small open green area, built over the preceding week by the boys, who knocked on doors looking for dried garden clippings, old lumber, broken chairs, etc. The neighbours would all gather around the fire and when it got late it was extinguished by dads with buckets of water. Most years, someone would pass sparklers around. A far bigger bonfire was lit on a headland, and could be seen from the upstairs windows of our house.

mathanxiety · 15/10/2024 00:19

Elderberrier · 11/10/2024 09:01

I joined at the start of this discussion and just returning. I love this post. OP I think this poster captures what spiritual practice is about - using your faith and approach to things to be a source of love and light in the world.

I mentioned earlier my mum had an attitude like you, and it was very oppressive for me as a child. Completely turned me away from Christianity as an adult. So unloving and cold to have these arbitrary rules connected to some lineage of ‘necromancy’ that has no bearing on present experience, when like the poster above, it’s possible to turn your mind in a direction of love and connection. I just don’t understand how it’s Christian to instead take your mind in the direction of disapproval and separation from others. Surely it’s possible with your connection to god to ask for his help developing an open and loving attitude to this experience, just like you would with any other experience that you are personally challenged by?

"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, give unto God what is God's".

For me, that applies to Hallowe'en. You can dress up, go out trick or treating, and go to church for the celebrations of All Saints and All Souls days. In my RC church, parishioners bring photos of deceased loved ones to leave on the St Joseph altar for the month of November.

I personally find the curmudgeonly attitudes ("knocking on doors is annoying", "children shouldn't knock on strangers' doors", "candy rots their teeth", "they'll turn into entitled brats", and all the rest of the bah humbug) to be the most objectionable part of the whole day, a gloomy cloud over what is actually a very heart warming event that reinforces the average person's faith in all things positive - generosity, community, affirmation of children and childhood, and simple joys.

Someone upthread asks what is good about children dressing as murderers or serial killers - is this an honest observation of Hallowe'en or a remark based on imagination? I've seen many a Hallowe'en, on two continents, but never anything like that.

DeanElderberry · 15/10/2024 07:30

On Saturday I'd have agreed with you. On Sunday I saw the Spar shop in the next village with the door daubed in fake blood and fake crime scene tape - really gory. And more than a fortnight until Halloween.

I'm sorry now I didn't say anything. I'm all in favour of Halloween and see nothing in its traditional observance that is not closely interwoven with Christian tradition, but this horror movie influenced stuff is something else.

MarginallyBetter · 16/10/2024 09:09

mathanxiety · 15/10/2024 00:19

"Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's, give unto God what is God's".

For me, that applies to Hallowe'en. You can dress up, go out trick or treating, and go to church for the celebrations of All Saints and All Souls days. In my RC church, parishioners bring photos of deceased loved ones to leave on the St Joseph altar for the month of November.

I personally find the curmudgeonly attitudes ("knocking on doors is annoying", "children shouldn't knock on strangers' doors", "candy rots their teeth", "they'll turn into entitled brats", and all the rest of the bah humbug) to be the most objectionable part of the whole day, a gloomy cloud over what is actually a very heart warming event that reinforces the average person's faith in all things positive - generosity, community, affirmation of children and childhood, and simple joys.

Someone upthread asks what is good about children dressing as murderers or serial killers - is this an honest observation of Hallowe'en or a remark based on imagination? I've seen many a Hallowe'en, on two continents, but never anything like that.

Entirely agree with you -- have never seen the slightest problem with reconciling traditional religious faiths and Hallowe'en. But there's a lot of horror-themed tat and costumes about. My plastic tat-obsessed MIL just gave my 12 year old a blood-covered plastic chainsaw, a roll of fake bloodied crime scene tape, and something that looks vaguely like one of those yellow plastic signs that usually say WET FLOOR, but this one has BIO HAZARD and bloody handprints. Ugh, obviously, but I don't think it's particularly rare.

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