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Philosophy/religion

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Navigating Halloween

245 replies

AgileGreenSeal · 04/10/2024 08:34

Any Christian parents / grandparents here? How do you navigate Halloween in regards to your children?

OP posts:
MetalGearSystem · 07/10/2024 14:59

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 13:28

We will have to agree to disagree on this then.

For clarity, the ‘malign spirits’ to which one opens oneself through such practices are nothing to do with deceased humans.

But I won’t explain further as I know you’re not interested.

well have you ever seen a risen zombie etc ? i mean if it was a zombie apocalypse then id understand

MetalGearSystem · 07/10/2024 15:01

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 14:56

I live in Ireland, where Halloween aka Oíche Shamhna (the Eve of Samhain) originated. It predates the arrival of Christianity to this island, possibly by thousands of years according to some scholars.
https://www.knowth.com/tara-samhain.htm

The practice of divination - telling the future, was an important part of everyday life for the Celts and it is certain that this art formed a central part of the festivities occurred at Tlachtga at Samhain. ”

https://www.newgrange.com/samhain.htm#:~:text=The%20Mound%20of%20the%20Hostages%20is%204%2C500%20to%205000%20years,Ireland%20about%202%2C500%20years%20ago.

Edited

The practice of divination - telling the future, was an important part of everyday life for the Celts and it is certain that this art formed a central part of the festivities occurred at Tlachtga at Samhain. ”

does not make it real, it all guess work and people saying its true etc, if it was real im sure the security services would of recruited them

ChungKing · 07/10/2024 15:02

MetalGearSystem · 07/10/2024 14:59

well have you ever seen a risen zombie etc ? i mean if it was a zombie apocalypse then id understand

A family member of mine swore that he saw a zombie in Cuba, when he was in the navy, until his dying day!

Im sure he meant some poor soul who had been poisoned and turned into a slave rather than a literal risen from the dead zombie though!

MetalGearSystem · 07/10/2024 15:08

ChungKing · 07/10/2024 15:02

A family member of mine swore that he saw a zombie in Cuba, when he was in the navy, until his dying day!

Im sure he meant some poor soul who had been poisoned and turned into a slave rather than a literal risen from the dead zombie though!

when its people in the military / and other services i would take their words more seriously, especially with the various special operation projects that go on across the globe

MarginallyBetter · 07/10/2024 15:22

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 14:56

I live in Ireland, where Halloween aka Oíche Shamhna (the Eve of Samhain) originated. It predates the arrival of Christianity to this island, possibly by thousands of years according to some scholars.
https://www.knowth.com/tara-samhain.htm

The practice of divination - telling the future, was an important part of everyday life for the Celts and it is certain that this art formed a central part of the festivities occurred at Tlachtga at Samhain. ”

https://www.newgrange.com/samhain.htm#:~:text=The%20Mound%20of%20the%20Hostages%20is%204%2C500%20to%205000%20years,Ireland%20about%202%2C500%20years%20ago.

Edited

Sure, and the fact that people believed they were foretelling the future thousands of years ago by scrying, looking inside goat carcasses or consulting oracles has exactly what to do with anything? I mean, people thought the sun went around the earth, too.

Jellyslothbridge · 07/10/2024 15:39

We used to live on a key trick or treat road with over a 100 knocks on halloween. As Christians we carved a more happy pumpkin and asked those who knocked to choose from a "good" bag and a "bad bag" .... Stating it's always better to choose the good (it had all the treats/sweets in it)

MetalGearSystem · 07/10/2024 15:43

MarginallyBetter · 07/10/2024 15:22

Sure, and the fact that people believed they were foretelling the future thousands of years ago by scrying, looking inside goat carcasses or consulting oracles has exactly what to do with anything? I mean, people thought the sun went around the earth, too.

the days of Galileo and when people thought the church was correct, the church says x so it must be true etc

Hoppinggreen · 07/10/2024 15:45

Could you view it like I view Christmas?
Bit of fun but the deeper meaning has nothing to do with me

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 15:52

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 14:56

I live in Ireland, where Halloween aka Oíche Shamhna (the Eve of Samhain) originated. It predates the arrival of Christianity to this island, possibly by thousands of years according to some scholars.
https://www.knowth.com/tara-samhain.htm

The practice of divination - telling the future, was an important part of everyday life for the Celts and it is certain that this art formed a central part of the festivities occurred at Tlachtga at Samhain. ”

https://www.newgrange.com/samhain.htm#:~:text=The%20Mound%20of%20the%20Hostages%20is%204%2C500%20to%205000%20years,Ireland%20about%202%2C500%20years%20ago.

Edited

That's describing things that happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago.

I'm from Ireland too. Divination has not happened at any Halloween party I've ever attended. (I am quite old!)

You are afraid of something for no reason OP. These are happy, family celebrations. Yes, some of the costumes are a bit outlandish of late (I'm not a huge fan of the more gory ones I have to say), but these parties are not about evil or communing with spirits. Mostly about fun and sugar!!

If the things you fear happen at all it's a very niche activity for adults and is probably not found in Ireland more than anywhere else.

RamblingEclectic · 07/10/2024 15:55

Samhain is not Hallowtide nor where Hallowtide originated - Christians honoured martyrs and other dead well before Christianity arrived in Ireland. I don't think I can convince you, but I would recommend reading the writings of churches over blog posts.

The connection between the two is largely an invention by some Victorians who tried to connect everything Christian to some pre-Christian 'purer' festival. There are several holidays people like to claim Christmas came from or Easter eggs that scholars fume and/or laugh about every year. We have a lot of writing from early churches on these things, they're just not as entertaining as Victorian tales.

The earliest we have about Samhain comes after the the earliest evidence we have churches in Ireland celebrating Hallowtide, and that early writing includes the 1st of November date. The idea that pre-Christian Irish celebrations would neatly fall on the Christian calendar is suspect, before getting the evidence that those types of celebrations varied with how well harvests and such went. It is significantly more likely that the later Christians writing those dates had them align with their local church calendars, especially as their Hallowtide dates align with other older churches outside of Ireland, meaning it's likely those who brought Christianity to Ireland already celebrated Hallowtide on those dates. I've not seen much on those writings that includes divination or necromancy, which churches of the time viewed as a type of divination - as you're aware from the Bible, necromancy involved raising spirits for information, not raising shambling corpses to do one's bidding as often portrayed today. That comes from different cultures others mentioned.

Yes, pretty much every festival ever is a fusion of local and cultural elements that change over time. The early churches had very little influence or control on how people did different holidays & by the time they did, those norms were well set. That doesn't mean Hallowtide originates in Samhain. It means like every other holiday, the way the Christian festival of Hallowtide is celebrated is influenced by the cultures around it and changes as culture changes. That's why it's celebrated in very different ways around the world. Pumpkins are combatively modern to the holiday, that only came around with Christianity going to the Americas, it's how festival change.

Just as Christmas brought in those Victorian ideas and became secular to many, so did Hallowtide, I'd argue even more so likely as honouring the dead is something is part of all traditional cultures and so expanded into wider culture easier and some of the tales the Victorians told are fairly interesting compared to honouring martyrs or church leaders wanting to separate out from the Jewish calendar and work out the date of the crucifixion and once happy with it then, because of Jewish folklore of Moses and similar having either been born or conceived on the same day they died as a 'complete' life, they just counted 9 months to get the day for Christmas. It's kind anti-climactic compared to stealing from pagans. .

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 16:15

The idea that pre-Christian Irish celebrations would neatly fall on the Christian calendar is suspect,

Not that suspect considering there were four seasonal festivals in total, spread 3 months apart. Likely that the Christians modified local celebrations rather than trying to enforce new ones on different dates.

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 16:24

Also certain Neolithic structures show evidence of the importance of the festival dates - such as the Mound of the Hostages at Tara, Ireland, which is aligned to sunrise at Imbolc and Samhain.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_of_the_Hostages

Mound of the Hostages - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mound_of_the_Hostages

MetalGearSystem · 07/10/2024 16:27

RamblingEclectic · 07/10/2024 15:55

Samhain is not Hallowtide nor where Hallowtide originated - Christians honoured martyrs and other dead well before Christianity arrived in Ireland. I don't think I can convince you, but I would recommend reading the writings of churches over blog posts.

The connection between the two is largely an invention by some Victorians who tried to connect everything Christian to some pre-Christian 'purer' festival. There are several holidays people like to claim Christmas came from or Easter eggs that scholars fume and/or laugh about every year. We have a lot of writing from early churches on these things, they're just not as entertaining as Victorian tales.

The earliest we have about Samhain comes after the the earliest evidence we have churches in Ireland celebrating Hallowtide, and that early writing includes the 1st of November date. The idea that pre-Christian Irish celebrations would neatly fall on the Christian calendar is suspect, before getting the evidence that those types of celebrations varied with how well harvests and such went. It is significantly more likely that the later Christians writing those dates had them align with their local church calendars, especially as their Hallowtide dates align with other older churches outside of Ireland, meaning it's likely those who brought Christianity to Ireland already celebrated Hallowtide on those dates. I've not seen much on those writings that includes divination or necromancy, which churches of the time viewed as a type of divination - as you're aware from the Bible, necromancy involved raising spirits for information, not raising shambling corpses to do one's bidding as often portrayed today. That comes from different cultures others mentioned.

Yes, pretty much every festival ever is a fusion of local and cultural elements that change over time. The early churches had very little influence or control on how people did different holidays & by the time they did, those norms were well set. That doesn't mean Hallowtide originates in Samhain. It means like every other holiday, the way the Christian festival of Hallowtide is celebrated is influenced by the cultures around it and changes as culture changes. That's why it's celebrated in very different ways around the world. Pumpkins are combatively modern to the holiday, that only came around with Christianity going to the Americas, it's how festival change.

Just as Christmas brought in those Victorian ideas and became secular to many, so did Hallowtide, I'd argue even more so likely as honouring the dead is something is part of all traditional cultures and so expanded into wider culture easier and some of the tales the Victorians told are fairly interesting compared to honouring martyrs or church leaders wanting to separate out from the Jewish calendar and work out the date of the crucifixion and once happy with it then, because of Jewish folklore of Moses and similar having either been born or conceived on the same day they died as a 'complete' life, they just counted 9 months to get the day for Christmas. It's kind anti-climactic compared to stealing from pagans. .

Your points regarding the distinctions between Samhain and Hallowtide are well-articulated and rooted in historical and cultural analysis.

CraftyGin · 07/10/2024 16:30

AgileGreenSeal · 04/10/2024 08:34

Any Christian parents / grandparents here? How do you navigate Halloween in regards to your children?

Ignore it or go to a church 'light party'.

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 16:31

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 15:52

That's describing things that happened hundreds or even thousands of years ago.

I'm from Ireland too. Divination has not happened at any Halloween party I've ever attended. (I am quite old!)

You are afraid of something for no reason OP. These are happy, family celebrations. Yes, some of the costumes are a bit outlandish of late (I'm not a huge fan of the more gory ones I have to say), but these parties are not about evil or communing with spirits. Mostly about fun and sugar!!

If the things you fear happen at all it's a very niche activity for adults and is probably not found in Ireland more than anywhere else.

Not in the least ‘afraid’ or in ‘fear’.

I’m just not willing to participate in this annual event as it isn’t compatible with my beliefs.

Thanks for your comments.

OP posts:
AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 16:32

CraftyGin · 07/10/2024 16:30

Ignore it or go to a church 'light party'.

I prefer to ignore it, personally.

Was interested in the thoughts of other Christians. Thanks for your comment 👍

OP posts:
Namerchangee · 07/10/2024 16:33

GingerPirate · 07/10/2024 14:15

Beat me to it.
I wonder how certain persons navigate their lives.

This made me laugh @GingerPirate 😂

MetalGearSystem · 07/10/2024 16:39

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 16:31

Not in the least ‘afraid’ or in ‘fear’.

I’m just not willing to participate in this annual event as it isn’t compatible with my beliefs.

Thanks for your comments.

but by extension based on the logic of divination being apart of the history of Halloween then how can any Christian be apart of being a Christian considering all the associated horrible history that the Christians have been apart of in the past as then its the same

Halloween = divination history
Christianity = various omg moments

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 16:41

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 16:31

Not in the least ‘afraid’ or in ‘fear’.

I’m just not willing to participate in this annual event as it isn’t compatible with my beliefs.

Thanks for your comments.

But you believe it to be something it isn't?

So not afraid, bad choice of word, sorry, but avoiding because you don't understand it maybe...
Most people wouldn't agree with you about what it represents. Especially not in Ireland.

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 16:43

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 16:41

But you believe it to be something it isn't?

So not afraid, bad choice of word, sorry, but avoiding because you don't understand it maybe...
Most people wouldn't agree with you about what it represents. Especially not in Ireland.

I understand it very well, thanks.

I’ve seen how dabbling in some of these things can affect people. It’s anything but ‘fun’ so I won’t be participating.

I just wondered what other Christians were doing about it, hence my original post.

Thanks for your comment.

OP posts:
Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 16:45

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 16:43

I understand it very well, thanks.

I’ve seen how dabbling in some of these things can affect people. It’s anything but ‘fun’ so I won’t be participating.

I just wondered what other Christians were doing about it, hence my original post.

Thanks for your comment.

But there's no 'dabbling' going on?

I feel I'm making the same point again and again but you're refusing to listen 😅

MetalGearSystem · 07/10/2024 16:46

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 16:45

But there's no 'dabbling' going on?

I feel I'm making the same point again and again but you're refusing to listen 😅

same with my point about being apart of Christianity

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 16:49

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 16:45

But there's no 'dabbling' going on?

I feel I'm making the same point again and again but you're refusing to listen 😅

Perhaps you aren’t listening to what I’m saying?

But there's no 'dabbling' going on?”

That’s a very broad statement for one person to make.

But thanks for commenting anyway.

OP posts:
MillenialAvocado · 07/10/2024 17:03

I take DS to the light party at our church, and tend to veer him towards more "autumny" activities - he loves pumpkins for example, so might do some baking or craft activities around those.

Mortifiedbythis · 07/10/2024 17:10

AgileGreenSeal · 07/10/2024 16:49

Perhaps you aren’t listening to what I’m saying?

But there's no 'dabbling' going on?”

That’s a very broad statement for one person to make.

But thanks for commenting anyway.

You said you're in Ireland.
I'm Irish.
I know the local customs very well indeed.