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Philosophy/religion

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Atheists and proof

1000 replies

Kdtym10 · 18/03/2024 09:07

On several threads, some atheists have said they would believe in God/the Divine if they had proof. If you’re an atheist what would that proof look like to you?

OP posts:
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citrinetrilogy · 18/03/2024 17:23

Kdtym10 · 18/03/2024 17:01

Yep, so did I.

Read them, have you?

ILoveSalmonSpread · 18/03/2024 17:34

I would so love to have a philosophical debate with you on the existence of a benign deity , however, I am caring for an elderly mother who rediscovered her faith in mid-life and continues to this day in her abject and painful way.
She utterly believes that god ( notice the lower case 'g') will relieve her of her suffering but that she can only go to heaven if she prays for an hour twice a day and must adorn her home with icons and other religious festoonery.

She have been in constant physical pain for over forty years. Prayer has done nothing. She now believes, as she is unable to leave her home now, that the reason her suffering is not abating is because she cannot go to church any more. She used to receive a home visit from her priest but he no longer visits ... probably because she had no money on her to give an offertory , so he stopped coming.
She still thinks it's her fault.
She's worried she'll go to hell.

If only your divine god could pop down and tell her that she doesn't need to worry.

Forty fucking years of feeling guilt, fear and despondency.

Dare I mention Sudan, Ethiopia, Gaza, Ukraine?

This entity does not exist else he/she'd sort it all out but he/she can't because there isn't a god.

Look at tribal cultures that worship the sun or moon or ghostly deities. Are they wrong? Are they right?
Pagans understand nature and it's cycles and that is more real than an unseen power that subjugates its people into untold acts of cruelty.
Dare I be a bit Pythonesque and mention The Inquisition? Or the burnings and hangings of women who harnessed the power of nature to help to heal?

Oh I could go on and on but given your history, I doubt anyone could convince that there isn't an aged, white man with a white fluffy beard who smiles benignly at us all ( despite his son being Arabic!)

whatsitcalledwhen · 18/03/2024 17:34

And I found it sad @citrinetrilogy that you got a response from OP to one of your posts and it wasn't any condolence or empathy about your poor mum.

I just wanted to say that I'm sure it was a huge comfort to her that you were with her and I'm sure that your love at least lessened the pain of her faith upsetting her.

Flowers
Lalupalina · 18/03/2024 17:36

it’s a shame so few people have managed to read and answer the original question. But thank you to the few who have.

Lots of us have said what God would need to do in order to convince us that he is real!

He isn't revealing himself because he is not real!

I find it sad that you keep defending a mythical creature without ANY evidence of its existence or, even if it did exist, without ANY evidence that it has our interests at heart!

Dontcallmescarface · 18/03/2024 17:46

"God" will never reveal himself because he doesn't exist in any way, shape or form.

Cleaningupthemess · 18/03/2024 17:49

For me there would be no way to prove the existence of god/the divine as these are such nebulous concepts. Which god are we talking about - all gods or a specific one - the god of Christianity, the Jinas, Zeus, Osiris, Enkai? What does divine mean? What qualities does divinity have when it comes to each/all gods? How would I know a prayer has been answered or if a god was angry or pleased. How would someone prove it was a god that caused a tsunami or if there was a plague of boils, that they were directly attributable to a god? And who would decide which god had brought forth the flood /boils etc.

takemeawayagain · 18/03/2024 17:53

I think a belief in God is down to nature and nurture as much as anything else is. Some people are genetically predisposed to be long term religious and others are brought up with faith and so are nurtured into it.

I'm an atheist. I love the idea that you could pray to someone and it would make a difference to your life/your family/the world. But it doesn't so what's the point?

If a ghostly man appeared in the sky surrounded by angels and spoke so the whole world could see/hear and said he'd had enough of people ruining the world and each other, then I'd believe. But obviously that's never going to happen. God is a creation of people to fulfill a need. Religion was created to control the masses.

BioHive · 18/03/2024 18:04

Looks like I'm late to the thread, if Q appeared (star trek) or a being like Q then I'd be a believer

11NigelTufnel · 18/03/2024 18:41

I find it surprising that the proof needs to be defined by me instead of the institution that claims they exist. Or why something must be divine if you don't know how it works. I haven't managed to work out my oven clock since I bought it, but I still think it is more likely that it was made in a factory, than all part of god's plan.

I guess it would depend on the deity, but I can think of a few that i could believe if they showed up.

Christian god - zap new animals into being with his magic finger. Extra points if all but 2 of each are destroyed and they rebuild the species with no genetic diversity issues.

Thor - clear command of thunder.

Ganesh - be half elephant.

Some are tricker, Amun-Ra made the sun and moon cycle and that seems to still be going strong, despite the lack of believers.

All in all, as none of the gods seem interested in showing up, I will just have to wait patiently as an atheist until they do.

Garlicking · 18/03/2024 18:50

BioHive · 18/03/2024 18:04

Looks like I'm late to the thread, if Q appeared (star trek) or a being like Q then I'd be a believer

Having advanced-searched OP's posts now, I can confirm that she's not a Christian, which would explain her focus on a sort of generalised 'divinity' rather than traditional deities. The Q continuum would seem to be a better fit than the biblical god! Bonus points if its earthly manifestation looks like a younger John de Lancie 😂

The divine emanations of which OP speaks might be similar to the Mycelium Network. You name it, Star Trek's got it covered ...

Garlicking · 18/03/2024 18:52

You're missing a crucial revelation there, @11NigelTufnel!

.

Your oven clock IS the proof we've all been looking for.

Perhaps.

TheFancyPoet · 18/03/2024 19:07

Proof cannot be given to people who do not want to believe in God. It is about faith. But I had many proofs, out of body visitations with saints, confirming the church calendar, dreams and visions with God, Jesus and saints....

Garlicking · 18/03/2024 19:23

Wow, @TheFancyPoet. Thank you. Can you tell us more? What are out of body visitations with saints like? It sounds frightening. Is it?

What does confirming the church calendar mean here?

If you don't mind - and I understand you may not have answers - what would you say to the PPs who've watched loved ones die in pain, some far too soon?

Yamadori · 18/03/2024 19:25

Kdtym10 · 18/03/2024 16:54

I was speaking to a particular poster.

You may well have been, but the thread isn't a two-way conversation. You still need to bear in mind that other people are also reading and commenting on this thread, so referring to something on another thread we know nothing about doesn't make it any easier for people to get your drift.

blacksax · 18/03/2024 19:34

Kdtym10 · 18/03/2024 17:00

What I’m finding really heartening on this thread is the number of posters who have never commented on this board before have suddenly found it! It’s like a miracle.

it’s a shame so few people have managed to read and answer the original question. But thank you to the few who have.

Im popping off now to leave you all to the angry rants. 😂

It's not a miracle, the thread came up in 'Active'.

In answer to your original question, I would believe in God if he/she/it would appear in front of me and explain to me why they saw fit to ruin my life by killing both my parents long before their time, and also explain to me why the fuck they thought it was a good idea to do that.

Lalupalina · 18/03/2024 19:39

But I had many proofs, out of body visitations with saints, confirming the church calendar, dreams and visions with God, Jesus and saints....

I'm also very interested in knowing more about these supposed proofs of God!

Would you mind telling us more about them, in particular your out of body visitation Shock?!

Kdtym10 · 18/03/2024 19:39

Just popping by, it’s amazing how angry people are on here about something they don’t think exists.

@Garlicking and alter ego you are continuing to brighten my day though- thank you💚

OP posts:
Kdtym10 · 18/03/2024 19:41

blacksax · 18/03/2024 19:34

It's not a miracle, the thread came up in 'Active'.

In answer to your original question, I would believe in God if he/she/it would appear in front of me and explain to me why they saw fit to ruin my life by killing both my parents long before their time, and also explain to me why the fuck they thought it was a good idea to do that.

And thank God for the algorithm which put it there. All praise to God using computer programmers for his work.

OP posts:
Lalupalina · 18/03/2024 19:43

Just popping by, it’s amazing how angry people are on here about something they don’t think exists.

You are the one who supposedly believes in this mythical God, so wouldn't you be angry on the poster's behalf who lost both parents? Do you still have faith in such a cruel God?

HannibalHeyes · 18/03/2024 19:44

Itscatsallthewaydown · 18/03/2024 16:37

The OP is proving here that the worst examples of any religion are its adherents

Definitely working on it...

citrinetrilogy · 18/03/2024 19:45

whatsitcalledwhen · 18/03/2024 17:34

And I found it sad @citrinetrilogy that you got a response from OP to one of your posts and it wasn't any condolence or empathy about your poor mum.

I just wanted to say that I'm sure it was a huge comfort to her that you were with her and I'm sure that your love at least lessened the pain of her faith upsetting her.

Flowers

Thank you for your kindness, it means a lot. I expected nothing from the OP and I wasn't disappointed. You can't defend the indefensible, can you?

dodobookends · 18/03/2024 19:53

Kdtym10 · 18/03/2024 19:39

Just popping by, it’s amazing how angry people are on here about something they don’t think exists.

@Garlicking and alter ego you are continuing to brighten my day though- thank you💚

No, we just get annoyed by people who argue the toss for the sake of it.

blacksax · 18/03/2024 19:55

Kdtym10 · 18/03/2024 19:41

And thank God for the algorithm which put it there. All praise to God using computer programmers for his work.

Edited

And thank God I'm not like you.

TheFancyPoet · 18/03/2024 19:57

Garlicking · 18/03/2024 19:23

Wow, @TheFancyPoet. Thank you. Can you tell us more? What are out of body visitations with saints like? It sounds frightening. Is it?

What does confirming the church calendar mean here?

If you don't mind - and I understand you may not have answers - what would you say to the PPs who've watched loved ones die in pain, some far too soon?

This is just a very well recorded visitation from a saint. Mary particularly, as she did. Research Lourdes, etc

She came on her major holiday in my room at night, I was fully awake and an angel was present, gave me a personal message and I did not know that on the next morning was one of her feast. When I woke up , the whole visit is amazing, my grandma told me that today is this feast of Mother Mary and I went pale and speechless.

To people whose relatives go to Heaven too young and in pain, all I can say is: look to the Cross. There was a Saviour there, who died brutal death and only in this paradigm there is any explanation for the coming justice. I have zero experience speaking to people who had relatives died in pain or early, apart from a friend of mine who died at the age of 42 on a street, from asthma attack, in front of her two small children. So I talked to her parents.

CurlewKate · 18/03/2024 19:58

@Kdtym10 "Just popping by, it’s amazing how angry people are on here about something they don’t think exists."

I'm not remotely angry. But I can and do get angry at the idea of people being fooled into the whole religious schtick.

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