ethical dilema re church tax. Am really torn. Any (Christian?) words of wisdom here?

[ernest]

OK, due to move to Germany very soon. I am RC, dh athiest. I am SAHM, therefore don't earn, dh has reasonable salary. If I worked I would feel absolutely OK about me paying.

In Germany the Church tax is 8% of gross income. DH extremely pissed off about this. I see his point, as he thinks religion is all a load of total crap, is not just a non-believer, but he is quite ante, and this just makes it worse. We are in Switzerland atm, where there is church tax, but lower, and he is really pissed off at having 1000'2 deducted directly from his salary. It does casue added strain, that religion already places on our relationship.

I d agree with him it's unfair, after all, in UK, the husband and wife's money is separate, but here it isn't.

So, do I insist I and the children are honest about being declared RC, thus him getting charged loads of tax he really objects to paying, and causing problems between us,
or do I agree to being declared no religion thus avoiding the 1000's of tax that will cause real problems as he is really anti as it is and this will make him much much worse.

Does it have to be all or nothing on the ta return? What happens is one spouse is protestant and the other catholic?

I would do whatever the law requires, and given that I don't understand it at all, my inclination would be to declare atheism (your DH being the sole earner and an atheist), and then I would give my bit direct to the church. But, as I have said, I have no knowledge of the law there.

Unfortunately you have to declare your religion on loads of forms loads of times, so I would in effect have to lie about my religion many times if I went ahead and didn't declare I am RC. It is automatically deducted at sourse. A big bone of contention. I see his pov, which is essentially yours raven, but if I go along with this, like I say, I'll have to lie loads of times, which I also don't feel happy about.

Dh ranting last night 'seriously what the fk do they need with x grand a year off me. What do they do with it'

In England, there are far fewer Catholics, and no church tax, yet the church manages to make ends meet. He is really pissed off about it. But I feel I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't, probably literally

st, that's exactly what we did when we moved here where there is (lower) church tax.

Dh declared himself athiest. I declared myself RC. I don't earn. He gets thousands deducted. He is not happy. Dunno what the particular configuaration would be if 3 different flavours of Christianity. But as it is, if i'm one and he's nothing he still has to pay full whack for me. It's not an option for me to pay what I want/see fit as an alternative, unless I lie and say not RC.

Message withdrawn

We are in Denmark and there is still church tax here - a Lutheran country. DH is the danish one, so I don't know much about it.

Can you find out what you actually get for the money? eg are there RC schools funded by it, or is it just to maintain cathedral walls? Doesn't seem like a very democratic system though. Will it be factored in to your DH's wages as part of the relocation?

Tough one. I will ask DH's dad about the position here later (he is a priest).

thanks Tickle, that would be great.

What do we get for the money? well, the right to ba married/baptised in Chruch. But neither of these things affect me anyway. I am pg, but wll anyway return to UK for baptism, as I'll want my family there. Mayntenaince of the Chucrch? Still, 8% gross is pretty steep, as like I said, UK manages without 8% and far fewer Catholics.

There may well be a campaign, but dh is going back to Germany today ( is back for long weekend) and will be getting officially registered, so need to make the decision pdq. Like I said, had this dilema when we came to CH, I really didn't think he'd be taxed as he is decslared athiest, but he is taxed, on my behalf and furious about it.

So faced with same decision again. if It wasa one off form I suppose it would be easier, but this is something that will be with me over and over for entire duration I reckon.

Also don't know if they will 'know' in the local church and what that would entail? What the repercussions would be, if any?

The thing is, though, when you move to another country, you have to take the rough with the smooth. Presumably, you are moving for economic benefit (ie a good job) - so the taxes are higher in one are, or there's a tax they don't have in the UK.

Having done the expat thing, I admit that it would be infuriating to compare every aspect of life vs the UK, but what you have to do is look at the whole package.

I agree with that.

But it's dh that doesn't! Or rather, if it was a different tax, eg on rubbish (which we also have here and not in UK) that would be one thing. We are both used to the situation being different. It's purely that this is to do with religion, and he is really against it. He's not agnostic. There's no fence for him to sit on. Our very different beliefs cause enough problems. And this will be a lot of money for something he doesn't just not believe in, but is actively against

That's a difficult dilemna. So if you both declare yourselves athiest then you pay nothing at all, and there is no other stealth tax they catch you with? We are similar, but not so extreme. DH is CoE, and I am RC. I would imagine that if we were to do it, I would go along with the declaring myself athiest, and donate money in lieu of the tax. But to the amount that I felt fair / could afford. Not the amount that was dictated to me.

Perhaps if you post this on living overseas, you'll get more replies.

Is there any way they will find out from Switzerland that you declared yourself RC there?

Where does the money go? Who collects it and do they actually give it to the church? I would not be happy for being financially penalised for following my religion, how on Earth are they getting away with it and WHY do they need to know?

You can change your mind about religion any time you like, so if you don't want o be RC any more, you don't have to be.

religion is between you and your God and nobody else!

laura, that's right , i if both athiest there is no tax to pay, no alternative.

taf, it's deducted at sourse. he just gets a statement to see how much he's had to pay to an organisation he really disagrees with.

not 100% clear where money goes.

my problem is tho, repeatedly lying. don't think you can just leave the box balnk! I would actively have to declare myself or lie (repeatedly)

I can understand why your husband is Pissed off. But, will the amount of tax he pays in Germany be lower than it is in the UK??

That's the main piece of information to focus on.. Is he paying MORE or LESS tax.

If it's even a little bit more tax, then maybe he could take some comfort from the fact that the church usually donates money to worthy causes. They don't use it to print up leaflets to try and convert people!!

I think I would have done what you did.. Told the truth on the form. I can't belieeeeeve that the Germans tax you 8% for being catholic! What about being Anglican catholic. CofE. Is that the same amount?

If you do decide to write athiest on the form (if it's not too late) then you needn't feel like Peter just before the crucifiction!! Nowhere does GOD himself sanction taxing people 8% of your salary. Although, I think it does suggest to people that they give ten percent of their salary to the poor. Who does that though?

Our expenses grow to meet what we have.

Good luck, it's an interesting dilemma for sure.

If you are not going to avail of any of those services, then I don't think you should feel guilty about saying you are not catholic on the form.

Their system is not right, I believe.

Are you sure it is 8% of salary, or is it 8% of total tax? I am in Germany(husband pays uk tax though)but I used to pay German tax and don't remember it being that much. I do feel that you should tell the truth though -whether your husband believes or not, you do, he is married to you and you are going to Germany because of his job. You should not have to go against your conscience because of his choices.
Don't know if that is any help though. Good luck

Hi - had a chat with the family and here in DK it is roughly 2% of income but it something you opt into as a family, so not compulsory even for people using the services so to speak.

SIL questioned whether it was 8% of income aswell, as that seems extraordinarily high...

If you decide to take the route of declaring the family atheist, maybe you could put a reasonable amount that you agree on with DH into a separate account for adding to collection etc when you go to church, so you are 'paying' for the services you are using, just directly

OK; have looked into it, you're right, it isn't 8% of salary, but 8% of income tax, but nevertheless it's 8% that he otherwise wouldn't have to pay, and the fact it's to "The Church" is the problem and he's resent paying any amount.

I tried to talk to him about it and he got realy shirty and wound up.

I must say, plenty of it does annoy me to, the idea of obligation to pay, the idea that it's a fixed amount, and from what I've looked into today, of the 8%, only 4% actually goes to the church and the other half is kept by the govt as a collection fee.

But if it were my salary, I would pay it.

I guess I need to find out if the situation in Germany is the same as in Switzerland, ie if he declares himself athiest, but me RC, will he still have to pay because of me as he does here? And if he does, then I'm still no further forward in making the big decision to lie and say I'm not a Catholic.

For me it isn't the money, it's the extra strife between him and me versus the guilt of lying and not doing 'the right thing'.

I don't think it is right for you to deny your Christian faith. You don't hide the ligh under a bushel.

Glad it is not so much-I was .

As far as i can see it boils down to 2 main issues -is it really 'his' money? You are a family, presumably a SAHM and you are presumably limited in your earning capacity because you are following him to Germany? (Obviously don't know your personal circs). Also, it is a part of living in Germany and he wants to live here. It is unreasonable imo to ask you to deny your faith because of where he chooses to work.

But my God is a forgiving God and if you think it will make your marriage better then i'm sure He will understand.

Okay I have no earnings I am a christian (ie very acitively involved in my church etc), dh doesn't believe. Obviously it's different here because any giving is between you and God but the way I see it and dh is fine is that he spends £x per week on his hobbies (5 aside, going out etc) so me giving the same/similar and giving my time is the same thing on principle.

TBH if you are not a practicising RC then I wouldn't pay. I know of Germans who have opted out, the priest didn't like it but it is optional.

Are there other ways around it? If you had a job, would they take it from your tax rather than your DH's?

dunno, but am 33 weeks pg (or will be when I move) so don't think there's much chance of finding out in the short term.

I am totally undecided. I seem to have a choice of getting divorced, denying my faith or my dh being forced to pay a tax he objects to, thus making him hate my faith even more