Atheism and moral nihilism

[PorcelinaV]

Would you agree that atheism / naturalism has a less solid basis on which to ground morality?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/09/life-without-god-bleak-atheism

Even more disturbing, perhaps, is the threat of moral nihilism. Atheists are quite rightly keen to counter the accusation that life without God cannot be moral. The British Humanist Association, for instance, claims that "Right and wrong can be explained by human nature alone and do not require religious teaching". But, just as with happiness, there is a need to distinguish the possibility of atheist morality from its inevitable actuality. Anyone who thinks it's easy to ground ethics either hasn't done much moral philosophy or wasn't concentrating when they did. Although morality is arguably just as murky for the religious, at least there is some bedrock belief that gives a reason to believe that morality is real and will prevail. In an atheist universe, morality can be rejected without external sanction at any point, and without a clear, compelling reason to believe in its reality, that's exactly what will sometimes happen.So I think it's time we atheists 'fessed up and admitted that life without God can sometimes be pretty grim.

That's fine for you, but you said it was "nonsensical", and that's wrong.

It's perfectly fine for some people to be interested in the truth (or falsity) of religious claims, and looking at the consistency of religions is one way to assess that.

That's fine for you, but you said it was "nonsensical", and that's wrong.

@PorcelinaV

I can only speak from my own perspective, everything I post is my opinion at the time of posting. The same as everyone else.

Speaking purely from my own experience, I can clearly see how belief in God conditions my moral behaviour. I think the difference with Christianity is that we are not saved by being moral, but by the gift of grace, and we try to act in a way that pleases God because we have a relationship with him. That's not to say we don't fear God. We believe that everything we have is a gift from Him, so to live without reference to Him is wrong and mortally insulting to him. Part of obeying Him is accepting his plan for thresalivation of people, and rely not on our works, but on what Jesus did for us when he took the penalty for our sin. And part of repentance is changing direction and living for Him, not for ourselves.

For example...
My child is winding me up and I feel provoked. I try not to get angry because I want to show her Christ's love, so that she will have the right idea about God's patience and gentleness.
Or, my husband and I are having marriage issues. We don't consider divorce, because we know marriage represents Christ's sacrificial and unending love and commitment to his people. We also see in the Bible that God designed marriage to be for life and we trust that he knows what is best for us and society. His design is perfect. So instead of considering divorce, we stay faithful to each other.
Or... Someone wrongs me. I want to get revenge by not forgiving them and "holding it against them". But I know that Jesus freed me from my debt of sin, and if I don't forgive others, why should he forgive me? If a slave is set free, they shouldn't go and enslave others.

Sometimes living according to God's standards is really, really hard and costly. It goes against my desires. But I see that the fruit of it beautiful.

@Pinkdalmatian9 how does that work when there is abuse within a marriage? Honest question. How long is one party expected to stay to maintain your god's ideal of what a marriage should be when they are being abused by their spouse?

And frankly, the idea of staying calm when your child is stressing you out is just basic good parenting - no religious faith is required to manage this.

All the things you point out as 'God's standard for living' are things done daily by millions upon millions of people who have no faith. You do them for your reasons, I do them for mine - where's the difference?

@pointythings,

how does that work when there is abuse within a marriage? Honest question. How long is one party expected to stay to maintain your god's ideal of what a marriage should be when they are being abused by their spouse?

@pointythings

As, a Christian, I would say sometimes people have to take action to prevent an abuser from committing worse atrocities. It is the kindest and most loving thing to do in some situations not only for the abused but for the abuser too and all around them affected by the abuse.

@heyhohello agreed, but I'm not sure the poster I addressed the question to would draw that line.

You do them for your reasons, I do them for mine - where's the difference?

@pointythings, ah that depends on your motivations. An example would be someone for whom money was a huge motivator. They would make their decisions based on if they were profitable. Or if someone had a transactional perspective on life they would only give to people they could expect something in return from. Or if a person were motivated by popularity then they would only do things that would make them popular.

Not saying you have those kind of motivations in terms of what you do but it is plain to see how world views and beliefs can affect actions over a period of time even if the individual actions seem the same.

@heyhohello I very much doubt that someone whose main motivation is money is likely to do the kind of things that meet your God's standard for living. In terms of popularity - well, that can go both ways. Of course people have different motivations for what they do, and the thought behind those actions does matter - but it's too sweeping to assume that the reason why people are altruistic is 'because God'. It's just not the case.

but it's too sweeping to assume that the reason why people are altruistic is 'because God'.

@pointythings, well you don't have to have Christian faith to do good things I believe that much. However, I do believe goodness originates with God - I believe God is love. So on that level I could say 'because God' but of course you wouldn't because you're atheist. So that much is a matter of perspective. From my perspective there are probably a lot of ways you would potentially be acting in unity with God's will if it weren't for the fact you don't believe in Him so can't have unity with an entity you don't believe in (or care about or approve of?) or want unity with.

Well, a good friend of mine with whom I run a support group for relatives of people in addiction (this is how I lost my husband) once called me a good Christian. She's religious, pragmatic and altogether lovely and I took it as a massive compliment. She knows I don't believe.

Well, a good friend of mine with whom I run a support group for relatives of people in addiction (this is how I lost my husband) once called me a good Christian. She's religious, pragmatic and altogether lovely and I took it as a massive compliment. She knows I don't believe.

@pointythings, it is a massive compliment. It sounds like you are doing a lot of good. Sorry about your husband, that must be very hard.

@heyhohello it was, but the flipside of it is that I have gained a lot of skills which are now benefiting people who are where I once was, giving them the strength to take care of themselves in the chaos that is life with an addict. That group saved my sanity and now I'm paying it forward.

You sound like the kind of Christian my friend is.

@pointythings, your work sounds very rewarding.

Thank you, I'll take that as a big compliment.

🙂

@heyhohello this isn't my job, it's something I do on a voluntary basis. I also volunteer for a cat rescue. It fills the 'empty nest' gap and yes, it really is rewarding. As is my actual job in the NHS. I like to keep busy. I've also got three adult children (one fostered but he's stuck and is now fully part of the family) and life is pretty good. I really hope yours is too, you sound like my kind of person.

@pointythings, wow! Sounds like you are very busy! I'm afraid my life would see very quiet in comparison to your's. I spend a lot of time running! (I had to make quite a bit of effort to regain my health and strength after cancer treatment plus various other issues and it stuck.)

@pointythings,

you sound like my kind of person.

Thanks. You sound lovely too. 🙂

@heyhohello good for you, I wish I could still run but arthritis won't let me. Fortunately there's always swimming. It's all about looking for the things you still have rather than the ones you've lost, isn't it? My nest is temporarily not empty, my DS is living with me while he has a year out from uni. He's found a job all by himself (this is a big deal, he is disabled, autistic and has mental health issues), has as I have mentioned got his poetry published and is generally a joy to have around. When he goes back for his final year next year, I will be equally proud of him for getting a STEM degree as a disabled person.

I think the most important question here is whether morals can be personal or is a greater good needed? If the latter what greater good is seen by atheists (with theists this would obviously be their deity and associated rules)?

is this society? Material wealth? health? Family etc. is this
somehow perennial or does it change between time and place. Does everyone have the same view/morals? If so where do they come from?

Really, for morals to be of value everyone in society needs to have the same morals, ie division between wrong and right (irrespective of whether this is followed personally). Without their universal application morals inevitably lead to conflict. It is this (at least on the tin) universal application of morals which might mean a religion is best placed to devise a moral framework (despite individual rules not being accepted by all).

Ultimately, individual morals can lead to chaos.

Therefore, I don’t think it’s religion, per se which is better at providing morals but rather its historical position of providing morals which are accepted by the majority.

It's all about looking for the things you still have rather than the ones you've lost, isn't it

@pointythings, yes, indeed. And it sounds like your DS has a fantastic outlook as well and has managed to triumph in spite of the challenges he has faced. 👍

@Maatandosiris I think this has already been addressed. The moral framework that maintains a cohesive society is pretty much common across all faiths and none - it's evolutionary rather than grounded in faith. If you look at secular countries across the world, they tend to have the same laws as everyone else. I think morals are mostly innate because we are wired for the survival of the species.

It's a very odd premise though. Morality is a social construct that humans need for society to work. Its the socialisation into shared values that benefit that society that is useful. Religion is just what came before politics as a way of deciding on what norms were most useful at the time.

Well, again I have a different perspective, 😁 since being a theist. Christian by faith.

I believe everyone is made in the image of God. So that's where the morality comes from. From this perspective variations occurred over time as peoples' relationship with God developed along different paths.

This is interesting:

www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/the-ritual-mind/202206/5-extraordinary-animal-rituals

It shows how animals have ritual pretty much hard wired into them. 🙂

i don’t think it has been fully addressed though.even what are now secular societies were most likely religious at some point. Laws and societies develop over time.many of the laws
and societal structures will have developed within a religious framework. Morals will continue to reflect those established within a religious society with some piecemeal tweaks.

For morals to be innate it would be necessary to have an objective right and wrong. Everyone would share the same morals (although with free will not everyone would adhere to these morals). Everything points to morals being a creation. A nurture rather than a nature phenomenon

For morals to be innate it would be necessary to have an objective right and wrong.

@Maatandosiris, maybe what is innate can develop - the study of epigenetics shows how the environmental factors parents were subject to and interacted with can be inherited.

And objective? From whose perspective? As a Christian, I believe, the whole truth, all knowledge, is with God. All human beings have biases and are subjective.