Atheism and moral nihilism

[PorcelinaV]

Would you agree that atheism / naturalism has a less solid basis on which to ground morality?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/mar/09/life-without-god-bleak-atheism

Even more disturbing, perhaps, is the threat of moral nihilism. Atheists are quite rightly keen to counter the accusation that life without God cannot be moral. The British Humanist Association, for instance, claims that "Right and wrong can be explained by human nature alone and do not require religious teaching". But, just as with happiness, there is a need to distinguish the possibility of atheist morality from its inevitable actuality. Anyone who thinks it's easy to ground ethics either hasn't done much moral philosophy or wasn't concentrating when they did. Although morality is arguably just as murky for the religious, at least there is some bedrock belief that gives a reason to believe that morality is real and will prevail. In an atheist universe, morality can be rejected without external sanction at any point, and without a clear, compelling reason to believe in its reality, that's exactly what will sometimes happen.So I think it's time we atheists 'fessed up and admitted that life without God can sometimes be pretty grim.

"ultimately you believe what you believe and I believe what I believe. We're both decent and functioning human beings (I hope) which suggests that as with everything else, there is no one single way, no one single truth, no one single route to living a worthwhile life."

@pointythings, I agree up unto a point. It's a very human perspective. We are all individuals with different histories, biological differences, who experience and perceive differently, that much is true. However, to claim no single (objective) truth turns everything onto its head ...it's similar to the belief we are living a simulation in that there is no singular reality. Mind boggling. Could get quite lost in that one!😁

@heyhohello I'm far from saying that there can't be one objective truth. I'm saying that there is no reason to suppose that a deity is it. A deity is one hypothesis, a simulation is another. There are bound to be others still that people could come up with. We don't know what that objective truth is, if it exists, and that chances are we can't know it (yet).

" We don't know what that objective truth is, if it exists, and that chances are we can't know it (yet)."

@pointythings that much is not disputed here.

1 Corinthians 13:12
For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

I suppose the question is how much of a part we might know! 🙂

The thing with that quote from Corinthians is that is assumes there is such a thing as an afterlife. I do not believe there is such a thing, so the quote is irrelevant to me.

Corinthians (absolutely love that language) is predicated on belief. So doesn't apply to me.

Bit of transference there, I fear.

i can’t speak for other religions, but Christ tells us the ‘do the right thing’ for love, not fear.

’Love thy neighbour as thyself’ ( I suppose the carrot is, that God will love you for it).

@pointythings but assumptions in life are necessary in order to deal within the context of the uncertainty we inevitably come across and still having to move forwards. So assumptions can not be dismissed so very easily just on the basis of them being assumptions. What is it that makes you reject or accept one assumption over another?

@CurlewKate, are you saying you base nothing upon belief, only upon fact? How do you manage to know everything? I mean knowing what to do in every situation where decisions have to be made? Yes, connections can be made and assumptions formed but that involves a belief that the connections relevant and assumptions valid.

@pointythings

I don't think there are quite as many atheists who think in terms of really quite esoteric concepts of physics and ethics as you think there are.

But then it could be argued that they maybe haven't considered the consequences of their worldview.

So they may be moral people, and they are going along with certain common ideas of freedom and responsibility and morality, and they happen to be atheists.

But they may not have spent the time thinking about their atheism.

So in one way, they may be representative of atheists at a popular level, and in another way, it may be the writers that give a better picture of atheism.

Me, I prefer to go with 'I don't know.' And I am content to live my life accepting there are things I do not and cannot know.

Well everyone has unprovable metaphysical beliefs including atheists.

So are you saying you consider that santa and the tooth fairy may be real?

@MariaVT65, simply speaking, yes. Santa, the St Nicholas version, is a saint who popularised the idea of giving gifts and performing acts of charity in remembrance of Christ. His spirit lives on through people who do just that. The tooth Fairy is more of a folklore belief, not quite sure of the exact history but there is certainly something that lives on in people who engage with the belief and practice of it.

So real as in they have a real and observable affect upon people actions.

@PorcelinaV as I've said on this thread, I don't see that there is a single 'true' atheism. It comes in as many varieties as theist beliefs. You seem set on there being a correct and singular form of atheism and I just don't buy into that idea.

I also think that saying atheists who do not agree with your writers haven't considered the consequences of their worldview is a massive reach. There isn't one true form of atheism any more than there is one true faith.

@heyhohello everyone operates on assumptions, or beliefs as I choose to call them. You assume that there is a god and an afterlife. I assume neither of those things exist. You're right that people need beliefs to cope with the reality of life - I take as much comfort and strength from my non belief in a god as you do from your belief that there is such an entity. None of this is about 'dismissing' anything - it's about finding the belief system that gets us through the night whilst respecting that other people have different belief systems that do the same for them.

But which beliefs have power over me in that I believe in them, that is follow them is different...Santa with regards to charitable giving, yes but Tooth Fairy not so much. 😉

So i meant the actual santa most kids believe in - the one who uses reindeers to fly in the sky, comes down your chimney to leave presents, and has a workshop full of elves.

I’m just trying to go back to your point about assumptions and fact. I know santa and the tooth fairy don’t exist. Just in the same way i know god doesn’t. Because they are all works of fiction/fairytales. People also have different traditions and believes with all 3 because people interpret those works of fiction differently.

@pointythings as I agree in terms of respecting others. I can also see many similarities in what you appear to stand for in comparison to my own beliefs.

As I said earlier, I think it is a matter of whether you wish to join the dots. Sometimes I think there are so many dots the picture begins to emerge even before they are purposely joined and you would have to close your eyes or look away not to see it but not everyone sees the same. Equally if the wrong dots are joined to each other all you get in a scribble! Dots are still there though...

@MariaVT65 most? But whichever - narrative is intrinsic within life. It affects us, the way we think and remember, ultimately it affects our brains and in turn our physiology, our physicality and our actions. Spirit then thought's physical manifestation into the world.

@pointythings

I also think that saying atheists who do not agree with your writers haven't considered the consequences of their worldview is a massive reach. There isn't one true form of atheism any more than there is one true faith.

I was going off what you said:

"I don't think there are quite as many atheists who think in terms of really quite esoteric concepts of physics and ethics as you think there are."

Well if they aren't thinking along those lines, about those important issues, then I can't see that they have thought that much about their worldview.

They don't think about this stuff, but they can be trusted on the subject?

Worldviews have consequences. Sure people may disagree over the exact details, but they do have consequences.

For example, if someone claims to be an atheist but also believes in an afterlife, they need to provide an explanation for that in their worldview.

Some Buddhists may say that and it's for them to explain it.

For any Western atheist, that kind of claim would need a good explanation or it's not really representative of atheism.

Sure some atheists may believe it. That doesn't mean it's consistent with the worldview.

@PorcelinaV those are some standards you're setting for atheists as a group. Could you please send me a photo of your Global Atheist In Chief card? Because let's face it, you're setting yourself up as the arbiter of True Atheism here and dismissing those of us who do not follow your stringent requirements on how deep our thoughts need to be.

For what it's worth, I don't spend my time going around lecturing people on atheism and its joys - my beliefs are between me and the world I live in, debates on MN aside. That means there isn't a standard I have to meet to be 'trustworthy' in matters of faith - I'm not looking for followers. And frankly, I'm too busy having a life to occupy my time with the kind of navel gazing you seem to require. I have morals, I have free will, that'll do me.

But they may not have spent the time thinking about their atheism

Why should you spend much time thinking about not believing in a thing that requires belief?

it's not a surprise that many atheists will deny free will and moral responsibility.

Do 'many' really do that though? I've heard debates about these things, but as far as I can see the people still behave as though they can make decisions and have moral responsibility.

"Why should you spend much time thinking about not believing in a thing that requires belief?"

@ErrolTheDragon, that is an interesting one. It infers that non belief is not an active choice. It's a deep rooted state of being that is instinctive or at least come from the subconscious.

However, we all have subconscious biases. Which can be the form prejudices take.

So maybe we all should take time to examine these? The religious are very much included. It's an ongoing part of Christianity. Or should be. It's something we have to engage with. Equally people with no active belief must have a lot of undiscovered bias(?*)Yet as you infer, they are something we may not notice ourselves unless we actively look.

• unless you are claiming to have no biases? How?

"Do 'many' really do that though? I've heard debates about these things, but as far as I can see the people still behave as though they can make decisions and have moral responsibility."

I have come across some of the scientific discussion. Some, if I recall correctly, was based on some research that indicated we react before our brain has had time to process a situation. My own take on it is that our processing can happen outside of a reaction and the result of that processing informs the subconscious which governs the reaction.

@ErrolTheDragon, unless you view non belief as a means by which to cancel out bias? As a way to the truth? But with an incomplete picture assumptions need to be made just to move forward. Within learning each connection made involves assumptions. Assumptions involve belief.

Or maybe that is not your view...

@heyhohello , I wasn't claiming anything or even stating a position, I was asking a question.

I'm not sure you answered it. Why should anyone spend much time thinking about not believing in something that requires belief? I'm sure there are many things other people believe in that Christians don't give a thought to.

I think you want atheists to think deeply about their ideas but I think you fail to grasp that although people will decide that there's no god for such-and-such a reason they don't have to, or want to, or feel the need to think further than that. I also think you are treating atheists as a homogeneous group when in fact, they very much disagree with each other all the time and they came to their ideas from a million different experiences and life events.

I don't expect all Christians to believe the same thing, and Indeed they don't because different sects believe different things. Same with Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Sikhs. I check myself constantly when making assumptions about a person from a certain faith because I think it's offensive. In the same way OP, I find your assumptions of atheists to be offensive.

"Worldviews have consequences". Well yes, they do. Shall we look at the Zionists in Israel for evidence of that? The Islamic State? Maybe Modi's nationalist government in India? Maybe we should look at the Iran's oppressive regime, or the unstable peace in Sri Lanka?

Maybe we should borrow ideals from the USA which was founded on secular ideals (but subsequently got consumed by Christian influence)?

The problem is not religion, or secularism, or atheism, in my view. It's human beings. Humanity. We do crap things to each other because we can. And will. And because we are self-destructive as animals, we will continue to do so, if it means there is self-benefit.

Finally I think your demands of atheists to explain their beliefs & defend them is ridiculous. Some atheists still consult their horoscope. Some atheists wonder about if there's an afterlife. Some atheists dabble in the occult or volunteer to be a godparent. Well, so what? That's got nothing to do with you or anyone else! Atheists sometimes have to negotiate families or societies that are still steeped in religion or religious expectations. Sometimes doing certain things is fun. Sometimes, well, just because. Sometimes apostates have to keep quiet about their atheism or lose their family and community. Atheists do not have to justify themselves, especially if their views could land them in trouble. So I think you are wrong. (Sorry for the essay)

@heyhohello I think believers and non believers do tend to think about their beliefs. Self reflection is part of growing as a person. However, I don't think that it is necessary to go into the esoteric philosophical realms advocated by OP - that's for professional atheists who write books about it.