Have you or your kids been to Soul Survivor?

[Coffeeandcards]

You might want to read this if so:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/12/mike-pilavachi-soul-survivor-charity-watchdog/

I was thinking today about what triggers me, the converse trainers, the microphones, the cringe attempts to be trendy.

I'm getting a Hillsong vibe off you.

At one point in the early 90s I knew several "cool" young church leaders who drove Ford Capris! It seemed to be a thing.

@PrimitivePerson Taken on board 👍 Hoping (but not praying) you find some healing.

@Cherryana I don't wish to start another argument.

Echoing TomPinch's post.
I think a lot of us who do still manage to go to church find it hard. I grew up in a evangelical charismatic baptist church. I now go to a traditional CofE church. That's after a gap of about 15 years not going anywhere, because I just....couldn't. The chuch I go to now is v welcoming and inclusive, but because it's part of the wider CofE, things that are said at Synod, and the whole LLF debacle, and the recent safeugarding stuff, not to mention all this with Pilavachi, don't happen in a vacuum. The bigger, wider, church is still homophobic (in places), misongynistic (in places), in denial (in places), and deeply, deeply flawed in places, and I can completely understand why some want nothing to do with it any more. Leaving is hard - especially when something was it a part of your life - your WHOLE life, in some cases. Staying is also hard, and I wonder if some folk underestimate what those of who do stay have been through. We've stayed, so it can't have been that bad, right?
People have reasons for leaving the church, and people have reasons for staying in the church. All absolutely valid.

Good. Just be nice. It goes a long way.

Please reflect on this, and think about how you would deal with it differently in future. Also, please look at some of the abuse scandals in the church and think hard about how you can prevent future ones, and stand with the victims. Try Googling Chris Brain and Jonathan Fletcher - I was part of Fletcher's church for a decade, and in all honesty he's an extremely evil man, yet was held up as a hero of the faith for years.

Don't just swallow everything you're told. Keep thinking. Open up to different perspectives. And just because it's in the Bible, it doesn't mean it's true.

@Catinabeanbag I really admire the people who stay. I'm absolutely blown away that Vicky Beeching can still hang on in there after the horrific way she's been treated.

Yes, that's where I am now. I struggle with it, to be honest (and the vicar knows this). I find the hyms-sung-at-funeral-speed really hard at times, and I often long for a bit of 'space' in the service, to just 'be' and listen... rather than hopping on to the next bit of the liturgy. And I hate going up to the front for communion, rather than having it passed around the rows; I find it compleletly disruptive to the mood.
But....then there's the odd moment where I'm caught by an athem, or the sermon, or the prayers, and I'm reminded that it's all bigger than 'church' - with all it's problems.
I couldn't go back to a charismatic church again, I don't think. It would be too painful.... and would probably feel a bit...fake...now, I think. But my goodness, I do miss that style of worship sometimes.

@Catinabeanbag I miss the way it made me feel when it all worked and made sense. You know what I mean. But I'll never get that back.

I'm glad you're thinking about things now. We've all been through that stage and, as you see, have ended up in varying places.

For me it was moving away from Evangelical Christianity into something more trad, and acknowledging the harm that has been done in the name if Christianity, but also discovering ways to live out my faith and, hopefully, serving others. There's a huge tradition out there for you to explore and a lifetime for you to explore it.

Catinabeanbag,

I stay because it's my damn church too.

Anyone following HTB focus and feeling a wave of anger? I feel as if this is all going to be swept under the carpet. I see posts from
vicars who I reported things to at SS and I can’t stop obsessively checking their social media.

@TomPinch Quite! And as a gay christian, I (personally) think that change is better from within. And while there are some Christians who join inclusive church or MCC churches, for me personally I don't think excluding ourselves from mainstream church is helpful. The con evos would probably like it if we all buzzed off and left them alone, but gay Christians exist in all parts of the church and our voices need to be heard.

@PrimitivePerson
I really should read Vicky Beeching's book....
Sometimes (often) I do wonder if it's worth it to stay. And then I'm reminded that it's about something far bigger.

I know what you mean about worship and how it felt. And at the time it all made sense and felt 'right'.
But then I had similar feelings at football matches and secular concerts and I began to wonder...... I'm not discounting everything about the 'old days', but I have...thoughts.

I'm off to bed now. Thanks, everyone, I don't often get a chance to bring this stuff up with people who get it, and I'm really grateful.

I'm off into the wilds of the Highlands for some hiking tomorrow, so I'll be gone for a couple of days. Catch up with you all soon.

Keep fighting the good fight, however that looks for you. x

Thanks for your posts primitive - and I can relate so much to what you're saying. Have a good time hiking.

I hope you get to the place I am where I feel things make so more sense outside the faith than they ever did within it....

I wish there was a "like" button on here...just so often to acknowledge I read the post and I'm nodding away... I think I've said before I'm one who stayed... But generally out of love with charismatic evangelicalism ...I climbed the candle from Uni onwards, though was still sorta involved in SS, NW etc for some while . I'm ordained, and in my non parish role I get a big overview of the different cultures and traditions in the c of E . Let the reader understand. I'm not sure why I'm saying this other than in solidarity with those who have come through the mess of hypey controlly and abusive evangelicalism and are scarred from it. I owe my parents and their deep faith but critical thinking more than I ever knew at the time.
Thank you all for sharing your stuff... It's so important ❤️

I still like proper old hymns, with beautiful organ music. I sometimes want to go to church just to sing hymns but don't want anything else that goes with it (and can't do it where I live anyway as I live abroad now so the hymns are all different)

I was at NW last week and nothing was said. There was a change in prayer ministry - only people who'd had the prayer ministry training could pray for others not known to them and there were some other new guidelines. There was one seminar on leadership and imbalances of power that looked really interesting but it was restricted to "young adults" - anyone else was denied entry! It was very odd to prevent discussion of such an important topic.

So glad I've found this thread!
I couldn't agree more. I'm currently "wandering " - still have a faith (of sorts) and want to keep the friendships I've made over decades - but really really struggling with church. The patriarchy, black and white thinking and yes, the abuse. Perhaps the thing I've read here that hit home the most was the poster saying how the sinner only had to find forgiveness from God and that the victim didn't really matter. Yes, yes, yes and yes again. Totally my experience too ☹️

Yes that's how I am as well

I can still access service on zoom but don't have to get overly involved itms

Your post moved me. I am sorry that your awakening has been so devastating.

I guess I have never had the 'upside' of being inside. I am just a person who sits on the periphery, with memories of the much-loved family member for whom the world was wide open, so many talents, growing into adulthood and adored by anyone who met them. Drawn in as a student, there is no part of their life which has not been restricted and compromised by their adherence to this style of faith.

But I will wait for them.

From my observations, there are a number of issues with the HTB network of churches.

1. They have very ambitious projects, but only the ordained clergy are actually paid properly. So, they end up relying on manipulating or bullying people into doing more than they meant to sign up for. The events are often very successful, so they feel like God is blessing what they're doing, even though the people around them are actually quite angry and frustrated.
2. Some of the people in leadership are actually quite immature. They are overly friendly with anyone young/new/a bit vulnerable (preferably all three). Then, when that person begins to realise what they're really like, they drop them and make out to everyone else that the vulnerable person was just too 'needy'. As the overfamiliarity doesn't normally extend to sexually assaulting the vulnerable person (!!!), it's difficult for that person to even explain what has happened to them and why it's left them feeling to rejected, without just looking more 'needy'.
3. There are many mature, committed Christians in the congregation, who often have the skills and competence to get them out of whatever mess they've got themselves into, and will do because their commitment to the church is high. So the leadership never really learn from their mistakes, and just take this as another sign that God is 'blessing' their ministry. The mature Christians often don't realise the extent of the problems because the immature people have the sense not to mess with them or ever show them their bad side.

I can't really fault the teaching on marriage and relationships. But perhaps, it can become a bit legalistic? Women then end of marrying men who have technically stuck to the rules, but don't really have the mature attitude to women and relationships that meant to go hand-in-hand with 'chastity' (to use the old-fashioned word), and are disappointed. Or else, they marry somebody they don't really love because they feel guilty that they've 'gone too far' and this seems like the only way to make it right.

I don't intend to undermine anybody else's experiences, and I hope it doesn't come across that way. I'm just not convinced that our society in general has a healthy attitude to sex or women, so I'm not sure that just ditching church teaching around that will land you in a healthy relationship.

@PopGoesTheWeaselYetAgain

Can I ask where you have found out about these things about the HTB network. I am genuinely interested in finding out more. In my church background, HTB are labelled as being wonderful and I read stuff on line about there being "problems" but never any more information than that. Yours is the first thing I have read explaining any of it.

I did an internship. I also have a close friend who did an internship at another church in the network. Of course, some people will do an internship and have a great time and some of the work they do is amazing. However, if you're not in a good place or at all vulnerable, my advice is avoid.
It's really difficult to explain the problems. Generally you're met with something like 'Christians aren't perfect, you need to have more realistic expectations', or 'you've got to be tough to be in ministry'. It sounds like MP has been stupid enough to actually sexually assault some people, so they have something to get him on. Other boundary crossings are much more difficult to explain. You feel very violated, but you can't even explain it to yourself entirely.