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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Brought up atheist but feel a pull to something bigger

141 replies

saltnvinegarpringles · 11/10/2022 12:46

Just that really. I was brought up an extremely staunch atheist but always felt there was something bigger. I feel very drawn to churches and I often say a quiet prayer to God, but I don't know who or what God is. I don't feel a connection to organised religion. I would like to explore faith but I don't really know where to start. Anyone else out there like me?

OP posts:
JustAnotherPoster00 · 26/10/2022 20:40

Vincitveritas · 25/10/2022 15:48

@AnorLondo :

"Since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles." Romans 1:19-23.

I DO NOT LIKE THEM,SAM-I-AM.
I DO NOT LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.

  • Doctor Seuss

If you want to quote made up shite ill do the same

MariEllie · 26/10/2022 20:41

But faith is history and fact based.

MariEllie · 26/10/2022 20:44

OMG12 · 26/10/2022 20:12

It’s a stretch to say Tacitus’s brief mention of Jesus when giving the background to the Christian’s who were persecuted by Nero proves everything in the bible written about Jesus.

Surely if there was historical proof (some 100 years after his death) Of everything in the Gospels Tacitus would have been all over the dead rising from the grave )I mean that’s historically monumental and surely Tacitus should have been writing book after book about Jesus ) women and shepherds being visited by angels rather than a brief mention in passing of a man put to death who these Christian’s worshipped all in the context of talking about Nero (the Christian’s being a bit of a side show- actually quite literally in the relevant account in the annals).

At the most the historical “evidence” suggests “Jesus” or actually Joshua was a preacher who caused some unrest with some followers. History is full of this type of thing. This one happened to take off through historical accident.

I really don’t know what else to say! You’re obviously intent on twisting “evidence”. I’m not sure why you are so intent on telling the OP that Christianity is backed up by facts. Who are you trying to convince the OP or yourself? This conversation is pointless, I’m done. Wish you all the best on your journey

You are of course got the wrong end of the stick. Tacitus was writing about Rome years after the event. The gospel writers were writing about what they actually saw or what people they knew actually saw. Yeah we take Tacitus as valuable history. Why not the gospels as they give every indication culturally of being true narratives of the day. Your problem is you cherry pick ancient history

MariEllie · 26/10/2022 20:46

OMG12 · 26/10/2022 20:18

Yes exactly, thanks for the quote. Sorry cross posted.

I think it’s down to faith what people believe Jesus was/is. And if they believe one thing, good for them, this faith has helped many people.

But trying to say there is evidence proving the resurrection is fact is at best disingenuous, and I think actually takes away from Christianity, it’s based on faith (ie doesn’t need to be proved, unless by personal experience). And faith is a beautiful thing for those who have it.

Sorry but that is not what the new Testament says. The Christian faith has to be based on facts and the fact is that Jesus rose from the dead. If he didn’t then the Christian faith is untrue. The new Testament is quite specific about this

Vincitveritas · 26/10/2022 20:52

Thank you, it is indeed @OMG12 .

OMG12 · 26/10/2022 21:11

MariEllie · 26/10/2022 20:46

Sorry but that is not what the new Testament says. The Christian faith has to be based on facts and the fact is that Jesus rose from the dead. If he didn’t then the Christian faith is untrue. The new Testament is quite specific about this

Pretty confident it says in John “who so ever believes in me…” not “whosoever can find historical sources that I was resurrected…”

You either meant that Tacitus provides historical proof of the divine nature of Jesus (he doesn’t) or the writers of the Gospels as inc in the canon were historians of equal standing to Tacitus (there’s nothing to suggest this, they seem to only produce one work each).

Vincitveritas · 26/10/2022 21:17

Thank you @OMG12 it does indeed.

Vincitveritas · 26/10/2022 21:25

Sorry for the repetition, it's been a long day. 😆

@JustAnotherPoster00 Very funny, I like your style.

But faith is history and fact based.

@MariEllie I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Faith by it's very definition means to believe in something in the absence of proof. The non Christians here will not take any of the New Testament as fact because it was written by the followers of Christ and therefore naturally biased. Not that I agree with them on that, of course.

LittleBrownRug · 26/10/2022 22:02

whattodo2019 · 26/10/2022 01:50

Have you thought about doing an Alpha course . They are there to explore God and not to indoctrinate you. Go along. I loved it when i did it.

Why are there so many people pushing Alpha Courses on here?
Sounds similar to MLM 'converts'.

OMG12 · 26/10/2022 22:33

LittleBrownRug · 26/10/2022 22:02

Why are there so many people pushing Alpha Courses on here?
Sounds similar to MLM 'converts'.

I’ve done an Alpha course (actually 2)IME they are pretty pointless, the leaders are extremely poor at answering anything but the most basic questions, have little knowledge about Anything but very mainstream Christianity. If you disagree, they do the whole, it’s an excellent question, we can understand your resistance in this secular world. But know Jesus loves you, quotes random bit of bible (if you’re lucky). Basically staffed by christian apologists( which they constantly deny they are) More interested in a guided tour rather than hacking the way through the jungle, you’re generally better getting hold of an old school vicar with a theology degree to have a cup of tea with

The best thing to do is independent research, reading books on different religions and mystics, various philosophies, poetry such as Blake, Coleridge read Shakespeare. Read the Bible. The Torah, the Quran, works on Christian esotericism. The Kabbbalah. Sufism, look at works of art, spend time in nature, with nature. Western spirituality is about so much more than mainstream Christianity (although of course that might give you everything too)

Wincher · 26/10/2022 23:27

I would just add that if you're looking for an inclusive church with an ungendered God and full welcome for women/LGTBQ+ people, do try a Methodist church.

MariEllie · 27/10/2022 07:35

Vincitveritas · 26/10/2022 21:25

Sorry for the repetition, it's been a long day. 😆

@JustAnotherPoster00 Very funny, I like your style.

But faith is history and fact based.

@MariEllie I'm sorry but I have to disagree. Faith by it's very definition means to believe in something in the absence of proof. The non Christians here will not take any of the New Testament as fact because it was written by the followers of Christ and therefore naturally biased. Not that I agree with them on that, of course.

You are of course wrong in your definition of biblical faith. The resurrection cannot be ‘proved’ any more than any ‘fact’ of ancient history cannot be proved. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t actually happen or that the New Testament is unreliable as a witness as when put to the test the New Testament has been shown to be reliable again and again. Interesting that people are ready to believe Josephus or Tacitus but not the gospel writers, but actually the gospel writers have a greater claim to veracity.

OMG12 · 27/10/2022 11:11

MariEllie · 27/10/2022 07:35

You are of course wrong in your definition of biblical faith. The resurrection cannot be ‘proved’ any more than any ‘fact’ of ancient history cannot be proved. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t actually happen or that the New Testament is unreliable as a witness as when put to the test the New Testament has been shown to be reliable again and again. Interesting that people are ready to believe Josephus or Tacitus but not the gospel writers, but actually the gospel writers have a greater claim to veracity.

Lol- you keep stating “you of course are wrong”. Are you actually an historian with credible qualifications and experience? Have you made any peer reviewed studies of any of this.? Surely the answers to your questions are obvious as to why one source is considered more credible than another?

You seem to have taken. Christian apologetics and taken it to an Olympic level.

What I’ve learned about some of apologetics learned tactics is to keep putting forward an argument, when that is easily overturned you gaslight the person who has overturned it, saying that they didn’t understand the point? Then move onto another, stating opinion as fact, making their opinions seem like the logical conclusion. I’ve seen it a thousand times, you are trying to do exactly the same lol. It’s like a choreographed dance that Christian apologetics learn.

in fact it’s a pretty standard trick to try and enmesh myth and fact - it happens across many religions and even secret societies. You could take the myth of King Arthur for example. Oh look Geoffrey of Monmouth said King Arthur was conceived at Tintagel castle, well that exists oh look the stories are collaborated by lots of authors, read Mallories accounts - must be true. Robin Hood, oh look Sherwood Forest is real, my god it talks about King John - true story. (In fact both figure have a Christ consciousness- and many similarities in the story clue - still waiting the Foretold second coming of Arthur)

the rather peculiar thing is I think this tactic takes away from the beauty of faith but no doubt I “am of course wrong” in your opinion dressed up as fact.

if there’s so much proof, why are eminent historians not writing book after book about the overwhelming evidence, that would change the world if they could prove the existence of the divine Jesus and therefore the existence of God. why is it mainly evangelical Christian apologists.

Vincitveritas · 27/10/2022 12:39

MariEllie · 27/10/2022 07:35

You are of course wrong in your definition of biblical faith. The resurrection cannot be ‘proved’ any more than any ‘fact’ of ancient history cannot be proved. But that doesn’t mean it didn’t actually happen or that the New Testament is unreliable as a witness as when put to the test the New Testament has been shown to be reliable again and again. Interesting that people are ready to believe Josephus or Tacitus but not the gospel writers, but actually the gospel writers have a greater claim to veracity.

Yes, I agree biblical faith is different, but that's not the type of faith people here mean and understand. I'm trying to explain that from an atheist's perspective Jesus is a mythical figure or, if he was a man, then he was just a good teacher etc etc. Therefore to them the Bible, particularly the New Testament, essentially becomes an elaborate work of creative fiction, as demonstrated by JustAnotherPoster00.
Keep in mind, "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood." 1 John 4:6 and "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Marths · 27/10/2022 12:39

MariEllie · 26/10/2022 20:41

But faith is history and fact based.

faith /feɪθ/ I. noun — [ mass noun]

  1. complete trust or confidence in someone or something • this restores one's faith in politicians.

2. strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof. • bereaved people who have shown supreme faith.

  1. [ count noun] — a particular religion • the Christian faith.
  1. [ count noun] — a strongly held belief • men with strong political faiths. II. exclamation
OMG12 · 27/10/2022 13:44

Vincitveritas · 27/10/2022 12:39

Yes, I agree biblical faith is different, but that's not the type of faith people here mean and understand. I'm trying to explain that from an atheist's perspective Jesus is a mythical figure or, if he was a man, then he was just a good teacher etc etc. Therefore to them the Bible, particularly the New Testament, essentially becomes an elaborate work of creative fiction, as demonstrated by JustAnotherPoster00.
Keep in mind, "We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us. This is how we recognize the Spirit of truth and the spirit of falsehood." 1 John 4:6 and "The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Corinthians 4:4.

I love that Corinthians quote and it’s as true for my system of belief as yours. That’s one of the beautiful things about the bible it does contain a lot of truth.💙

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