Help settle religious/ sex outside marriage debate with colleague ?

[stripyspider]

I have a colleague who , whenever LGBT issues are mentioned, will tell anyone who can listen how he is against "LGBT everything," because of his religious beliefs/ the bible, ( he says he is Christian). The bible says it is wrong, is his standard answer.

The same colleague will boast to anyone who will listen about his many one-night stands/ two timing partners etc, ( "haha I've had to cheat on every relationship I've ever been in.")

I eventually asked him, earlier today, ( subject came up in the office yet again), why he was so bothered about the bible prohibiting gay sex, when he was clearly more than happy to have sex outside of marriage with multiple women ?

He looked at me like I was very stupid, and was like "have you ever read the bible ?" The bible explicitly forbids gay sex, but it never actually says you have to be married to have sex/ bans one night stands !"

And the thing is, he's right. Whilst I have, ( from school), a basic understanding of some bible stories e.g. the good Samaritan, Noah's Ark, tower of babble etc, I've realised I can't really definitively answer this, ( annoying and smug), man on this point.

Does the bible explicitly ban sex outside of marriage in the same way it explicitly prohibits gay sex ?

Personally I wouldn’t get into this with him. He is a bigot and that’s it.

But I would go down the route of asking exactly which versions of the bible he is reading first

ask him where it outright bans gay marriage or sex. Then look up information online on the translation. I believe that most are actually mis translations, either by accident or to push an agenda.

If it’s the King James Version, ask him about Kings James ‘favourites’ and the theory he was Gay or bi sexual himself.

You could also point out that many men who are promiscuous AND homophobic, actually turn out to be gay themselves. Internalised homophobia is definitely a thing. As is trying to prove they are straight, to themselves, by sleeping with as many women as possible.

The bible also doesn't say not to rape. That doesn't make it OK? The only rape that is punishable is if you rape a virgin who is engaged, then you have to marry her and pay her father some money.

The bit that bans gay sex also says eating prawns is an abomination.

Adultery is banned, that's one of the 10 commandments.

I bet he cuts his hair though, that's banned, well not entirely, just the sides of your head.

Does he eat cheeseburgers? Or put cheese on spag bol? That's breaking a Bible rule.

I’d ask what his clothes are made of… the Bible also recommends that anyone wearing blended fabrics (like poly cotton) be stoned to death.

Well, you could go down the path of debating the finer points of Biblical doctrine, as many religious scholars have done, but that's been going on without resolution for literally centuries so I doubt you will reach an agreement.

Or, you could take a massive step back and recognise that this dude is a misogynist, homophobe and apparently quite unpleasant in other ways, so it is truly not worth engaging with him on it.

“Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces” (Matthew 7:6)

Eph 5:3 - Let sexual immorality and every sort of uncleanness or greediness not even be mentioned among you, just as is proper for holy people

1 Corinthians 6:18 -Flee from sexual immorality! Every other sin that a man may commit is outside his body, but whoever practices sexual immorality is sinning against his own body.

1 Thess 4: 3-5 - For this is the will of God, that you should be holy and abstain from sexual immorality. 4 Each one of you should know how to control his own body in holiness and honor, 5 not with greedy, uncontrolled sexual passion like the nations have that do not know God.

Hebrews 13:4 - 4 Let marriage be honorable among all, and let the marriage bed be without defilement, for God will judge sexually immoral people and adulterers.

It sounds like he knows diddly squat about the Bible 😂

The term used in the King James Bible for sex outside marriage is “fornication”. As in 1 Corinthians 7

1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.
2 Nevertheless*, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

(1-2)

if you search in the Bible for the term “fornication”, you’ll see it’s condemned many times www.biblestudytools.com/search/?t=kjv&q=Fornication (More modern translations use the term “sexual immorality” but for your purposes that’s unhelpfully vague, given that even today “fornication” is defined as sex outside marriage and it’s v clear from 1 Corinthians 7 that this is what is meant ) For example, 1 Thessalonians 4:

3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honour;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:

(3-5)

Your friend sounds like a bigot and a bit of an idiot.

Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.
1 Corinthians .
Tell him to give up the bacon sarnies and prawn sandwiches too. Or shut up as he is an idiot.

You shall not covet your neighbour’s house. You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.

— Exodus 20:17
Another one for you. So lusting after her next door is also wrong.

He is wrong. The bible is really clear about adultery and fornication. It is less clear on LGBT but that is muddied by translation and cultural issues.

The Bible is a library of writings; poems, myth, purity law, ancient histories and stories, letters, gospels and wisdom literature which was written and rewritten over a very long period of time. The cultures and contexts it was written in was very different from ours. Back then it was really important for a man to know that his sons were his so the adultery and formication rules were big issues. Gay relationships mostly don't affect the inheritance of property so in a society in which everyone married they aren't important and the passages in the Old Testament that are quoted as against homosexuality are actually about the failure of hospitality which was really important in that culture. In thousand or so years later when Paul writes his letters it could be argued that what he is objecting to is the exploitation of vulnerable boys by men rather than committed same sex relationships.

It sounds like the chap quoting the Bible hasn't studied it. Even the most conservative,fundamentalist, literal reading of the Bible form of church won't be condoning sleeping around.

Ignore and move on. Pearls before swine etc.

I am going to guess that if he thinks the bible is fine with sex outside marriage, he isn’t not someone who is interested in the bible. ‘The bible says gay people are bad’ is just, what he thinks, is an acceptable justification for his homophobia

Tell him he is not a Christian. Being unfaithful is not the act of a Christian.

And as others have said, sex outside of marriage is Fornication. And the Bible speaks clearly against it. So he is the one who hasn't read the Bible. So there are two things there; being unfaithful, and fornicating.

Personally I think he is so forthright about it because he is trying to suppress his own gay feelings. Protest too much and all that.

Don't waste your time.

What an absolute waste of time.

This is the ‘wrestling with a pig’ argument. Don’t wrestle with a pig — you’ll both get covered in shit and the pig just enjoys it anyway.

He already knows he’s a homophobic bigot with selective interpretations of an old book. He’s just using it to justify prejudice.

Leave him to his infidelity. He’s got to live in his own head, why are you letting him live rent-free in yours?

@sashh Eating prawns isn't an abomination, the word is detestable and it also applied to eating pork, among other things. The laws you're referring to come under the Law of Moses, given to the Israelites. Christians are no longer required to follow this law - after Jesus was crucified & resurrected he created what is called the 'new covenant'. There was a lot of debate in the early church in regards to the new Gentile (non Jewish) believers:

"Certain people came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the believers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.” This brought Paul and Barnabas into sharp dispute and debate with them. So Paul and Barnabas were appointed, along with some other believers, to go up to Jerusalem to see the apostles and elders about this question. The church sent them on their way, and as they traveled through Phoenicia and Samaria, they told how the Gentiles had been converted. This news made all the believers very glad. When they came to Jerusalem, they were welcomed by the church and the apostles and elders, to whom they reported everything God had done through them.

Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.” Acts 15:1-11.
"You are to abstain from food sacrificed to idols, from blood, from the meat of strangled animals and from sexual immorality. You will do well to avoid these things." Acts 15:29.

So as you can see, while we can now eat pork & shellfish or wear clothing made from two different fibres, Christians should not be involved with sexual immorality (including fornication ie sleeping around and/or sex before marriage). The man OP is talking about doesn't seem to have read the Bible.

Does the bible explicitly ban sex outside of marriage in the same way it explicitly prohibits gay sex ?

Only if you’re married. To be specific, the Bible explicitly says gay sex is banned, and that adultery is banned (sex while married or with someone who is married to someone else)

Not really, “covet” is literally to the desire to steal & own, not to fuck. Women were property then, and “servant” was interchangeable with “slave” in the language that’s why they’re both listed with house and ox/donkey because they’re all chattel goods.

Covet is to desire or have a yearn to posses.

Sorry posted too soon
So does that mean even fancying someone who is married is wrong, in the bible?

He’s the kind of man who’ll selectively quote the bible to justify his acts and his hatred. You can’t reason with a person like that so don’t waste your breath and your brain power and ignore him as much as is possible in a work environment. He’ll be enjoying getting a rise out of you so don’t give him the satisfaction.

However if you think he’s treating anyone you work with a a client badly because they’re LGBT then it’s time to talk to HR.

If it’s the King James Version, ask him about Kings James ‘favourites’ and the theory he was Gay or bi sexual himself.

@Hearthnhome It was widely known that King James I had boyfriends on the side. However, it wasn’t his version of the Bible, he didn't re-write it, it was still the Bible.

In a word, yes.

The first three are really about masturbation, the fourth is about adultery.

You have to think that when these letters were written by St Paul, this was a society that had female slaves and that included mens sexual access to them. St Paul also was not an abolitionist, he accepted slavery.

The cultural restriction of absolutely no sex outside marriage- before, during and after- was reserved for women, not men.

Of course, later interpretations have muddied the waters.

Just to point out 7th Day Adventists keep Kosher and also have their Sabbath from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown. So not all Christians reject the teachings of the Old Testament, after all most obey the 10 Commandments although there are 613 in Jewish tradition. They just pick and choose which to follow. Much like the chap here.

St Paul also was not an abolitionist, he accepted slavery.

@Discovereads The early Christians lived in Roman occupied Judea. To the Ancient Romans, slavery played an important role in society and the economy:

'The historical context shows that slavery in Paul’s day was not as oppressive as later forms of slavery. Many prominent people in the ancient world were slaves, including teachers, writers, politicians, artisans and philosophers. Some slaves were better off financially than many who were born free or had purchased their freedom. And slaves often anticipated their freedom after 10 to 20 years of service to their masters, yet some chose to stay with their masters.

The process of being released from slavery is recorded on ancient wall inscriptions found at Delphi, north of Corinth. A ritual took place in a sacred temple, in which a slave would pay a priest the funds to purchase his or her freedom from the owner. (Slaves could negotiate the transaction on their own.) Once freed, the slave’s name was inscribed on the walls of the temple.'

St Paul encourages Christians to become free if at all possible, "Were you a slave when you were called? Don’t let it trouble you—although if you can gain your freedom, do so." 1 Corinthians 7:21. He wasn't condoning slavery, it was an accepted and established part of society at that time. Saint Paul gave instructions to Christians on how best to live within this social structure.

As a Christian, I am well aware of what it says about gay relationships, but I have yet to meet anyone who got to choose their sexuality - be they gay or straight!