Starting the discernment process in the CofE

[MrsTulip]

For a few years now God has been telling me he wants more from me, but that's all he's saying. He hasn't yet revealed what more is, then over the last 18 months a few friends and people I know from currently serving in children's ministry have mentioned I should consider ordination. Strangely this hasn't freaked me out like I thought it would but I do have a lot of questions and uncertainties about it, I feel this may be the way God wants me to go.
For a short while I did think it might be a call to reader ministry and I asked the vicar at a school I'm connected to (not my vicar or my child's school) a few questions about it.
I've also spoke to my own vicar about a placement in another church but have said I want this to hep me develop my current role.
I don't know why but I'm finding it hard to be totally honest with those around me and say outright I think God wants me to start the formal discernment process. Other than praying (cause I'm already doing tonnes of that) has anyone any advice of how to approach my vicar? I also for reasons that would be too outing don't want to talk my church warden. Thanks

[CremeEggsForBreakfast]

The usual way to do things is to talk to your vicar first but it's not the only way.

For example, you could register your interest directly with your diocese. They will likely contact your minister but if you're not ready for that, you could request that they put you in touch with a vocations advisor first.

Why do you think you find talking to your own vicar difficult?

A supportive vicar (from my experience at least) should offer to put you in touch with a vocations advisor (who will talk you through whether or not ordained ministry is right for you and help you to prepare for the more formal application process) and over time will also help you prepare by allowing you time to preach, lead the service, and see "behind the scenes" - perhaps by suggesting you join the PCC or become a church warden.

It's a long and arduous process just to be accepted for training so please do find a supportive church where you have the full support of the leadership team!

[MrsTulip]

@CremeEggsForBreakfast

The usual way to do things is to talk to your vicar first but it's not the only way.

For example, you could register your interest directly with your diocese. They will likely contact your minister but if you're not ready for that, you could request that they put you in touch with a vocations advisor first.

Why do you think you find talking to your own vicar difficult?

A supportive vicar (from my experience at least) should offer to put you in touch with a vocations advisor (who will talk you through whether or not ordained ministry is right for you and help you to prepare for the more formal application process) and over time will also help you prepare by allowing you time to preach, lead the service, and see "behind the scenes" - perhaps by suggesting you join the PCC or become a church warden.

It's a long and arduous process just to be accepted for training so please do find a supportive church where you have the full support of the leadership team!

I don't feel ready to talk to my own vicar yet because I have in the last 5 years applied for a lot of church based jobs(all same area of ministry) in other churches after feeling called to take my current ministry full time and out of all the posts I interviewed for I only got one job offer so it makes me doubt if what I think God is saying to is actually his will for me.

Also our church warden had a unsuccessful BAP at the same time as a younger person had a successful BAP. The church warden then went on to have another unsuccessful BAP and one unsuccessful reader selection before being accepted to train as reader roughly 4 years ago, and judging by the way she has been with someone else from one of our team churches (again early 30's so very young) who has just been accepted to train for ordination I get the impression that she hasn't fully dealt with the unsuccessful BAP's. We have to work very closely together for messy church and all age services so don't want to risk the relationship we currently have.

Think I might speak to the vicar at the school I work at when we return in September

[mostlydrinkstea]

You need to talk to your vicar as you have to have their support to get started. The criteria have changed over the past year and I think we are all still getting used to the new process. If you don't have a spiritual director see if you can get one. Also have a look at some books on priesthood. Of the ones recommended at the moment the two best ones IMHO are by Steven Cottrell and Graham Tomlin.

[mostlydrinkstea]

It was a very long time ago that I approached my vicar. At the time I thought it was because he would laugh at me. He didn't. Now I think it was because it made it real and I had to take the call outside of my prayer life and expose it to the discernment process. It is an odd time.

[picklemewalnuts]

If it's a successful Bap application, you'll leave behind your current ministry anyway. If it's unsuccessful, well she'll understand.

How about asking her about her experience, and say you are getting a niggling but don't know how to proceed? Ask her how she felt, what you should do, given that it's clearly not as easy as 'I think God is telling me...'.

[MrsTulip]

@mostlydrinkstea

You need to talk to your vicar as you have to have their support to get started. The criteria have changed over the past year and I think we are all still getting used to the new process. If you don't have a spiritual director see if you can get one. Also have a look at some books on priesthood. Of the ones recommended at the moment the two best ones IMHO are by Steven Cottrell and Graham Tomlin.

Thank you. I already have a brilliant spiritual director who I see regularly. Please could you tell me the titles of the books you recommend? Thanks

[CremeEggsForBreakfast]

@MrsTulip

I don't feel ready to talk to my own vicar yet because I have in the last 5 years applied for a lot of church based jobs(all same area of ministry) in other churches after feeling called to take my current ministry full time and out of all the posts I interviewed for I only got one job offer so it makes me doubt if what I think God is saying to is actually his will for me.

Also our church warden had a unsuccessful BAP at the same time as a younger person had a successful BAP. The church warden then went on to have another unsuccessful BAP and one unsuccessful reader selection before being accepted to train as reader roughly 4 years ago, and judging by the way she has been with someone else from one of our team churches (again early 30's so very young) who has just been accepted to train for ordination I get the impression that she hasn't fully dealt with the unsuccessful BAP's. We have to work very closely together for messy church and all age services so don't want to risk the relationship we currently have.

Think I might speak to the vicar at the school I work at when we return in September

I appreciate your concerns. It's a very big and scary thing. Your vicar should be the one best placed to walk you through these things.
The discernment process takes a year at the very least - if not longer - to allow this room for doubt and questioning and to test your calling.

But speaking to him needn't be a commitment to anything. You can approach him and say "I had this strange experience where someone suggested I do this and the idea sort of resonated with me. Can you suggest some ways I might explore this/people I can talk to? I'm not ready to pursue it yet but I'd love to learn more".

I can understand the delicate relationship with your warden too. We have had two people leave our church in the past 10yrs after they didn't receive the support for ordination that they felt they should have done (one had a couple of unsuccessful BAPs and the other was different circumstances and, thankfully, much has since been resolved).

But unfortunately, whilst you can chat to another vicar to start exploring, l if you pursue it formally your sending church will need to supply references etc so they will be informed. You may not want to make things awkward but these are the warden's own issues to process and you can't let that hold you back from something you feel God is calling you to do.

[MrsTulip]

@mostlydrinkstea

It was a very long time ago that I approached my vicar. At the time I thought it was because he would laugh at me. He didn't. Now I think it was because it made it real and I had to take the call outside of my prayer life and expose it to the discernment process. It is an odd time.

I think that's partly my concern, not that he would laugh as he's not like that but he is very honest but I worry he will say something along the lines of "Mrs Tulip, God really isn't calling you."

[MrsTulip]

@CremeEggsForBreakfast

I appreciate your concerns. It's a very big and scary thing. Your vicar should be the one best placed to walk you through these things.
The discernment process takes a year at the very least - if not longer - to allow this room for doubt and questioning and to test your calling.

But speaking to him needn't be a commitment to anything. You can approach him and say "I had this strange experience where someone suggested I do this and the idea sort of resonated with me. Can you suggest some ways I might explore this/people I can talk to? I'm not ready to pursue it yet but I'd love to learn more".

I can understand the delicate relationship with your warden too. We have had two people leave our church in the past 10yrs after they didn't receive the support for ordination that they felt they should have done (one had a couple of unsuccessful BAPs and the other was different circumstances and, thankfully, much has since been resolved).

But unfortunately, whilst you can chat to another vicar to start exploring, l if you pursue it formally your sending church will need to supply references etc so they will be informed. You may not want to make things awkward but these are the warden's own issues to process and you can't let that hold you back from something you feel God is calling you to do.

Thank you this is very helpful advice

[MrsTulip]

@picklemewalnuts

If it's a successful Bap application, you'll leave behind your current ministry anyway. If it's unsuccessful, well she'll understand.

How about asking her about her experience, and say you are getting a niggling but don't know how to proceed? Ask her how she felt, what you should do, given that it's clearly not as easy as 'I think God is telling me...'.

I may leave behind my current ministry but we do have OLM's in my diocese so IF (note IF) this is where God wants me I could end up non stipendiary and staying in my own parish/team.
She already part of our diocese vocation support group and is a very dominating person to the point I sometimes feel I can't do/say certain things because she makes as much as she possibly can about her and revolve around her, and it's not just me in my church that feels like this, others have expressed concern about it numerous times over the years

[picklemewalnuts]

Well that's an issue of itself. How difficult.

[Meltingsocks]

I would focus on what you want from life, rather than trying to work through the peculiarities of organised religion. If you feel you want to do more for your community there is so much that needs doing, without jumping through all these hoops!

[MrsTulip]

@Meltingsocks

I would focus on what you want from life, rather than trying to work through the peculiarities of organised religion. If you feel you want to do more for your community there is so much that needs doing, without jumping through all these hoops!

Thanks, I already do community stuff

[mostlydrinkstea]

The titles are ' On Priesthood' and 'The Widening Circle.'

I see your issue. All your vicar has to do is refer you on. The decision to ordain you isn't in their gift. A softly, softly unthreatening, 'I feel a nudge, a sense, a beginning of something I'd like to explore' might go better than 'God has told me to.' It is good practice for pastoral ministry! Your SD might be able to help you do this. I'm really glad you have a good one.

My sense is that the new system is more about group discernment in the early stages. It feels more affirming than the previous system and more slow burn than it was. My role is similar to the examining chaplain so I see people about 1/3 of the way through and I see a lot of work to be done but that isn't a problem.

[Sproutingpotatoes]

I'm starting this process too (in a different denomination) and in my experience (and the experience of a couple of friends too), you're unlikely to get a thunderbolt from heaven saying 'do it'! Instead it's often a gentle warming-up process beginning with not being horrified by the idea, which then progresses to feeling intrigued and so forth.

The discernment process is all about knocking on a series of doors and as each one opens, you take a couple of steps forward and knock at the next one. If one slams in your face, you regroup and then approach the next door cautiously.

I understand your reticence about sharing it too widely. I think it's an intensely personal thing and in my case, there was initially a fear that people might laugh or think I'd be terrible at it. Funny thing is, once I opened up to a couple of trusted friends, they both smiled. They said they'd both had the same thought about me and wholeheartedly agreed I should go for it.

[MrsTulip]

@mostlydrinkstea

The titles are ' On Priesthood' and 'The Widening Circle.'

I see your issue. All your vicar has to do is refer you on. The decision to ordain you isn't in their gift. A softly, softly unthreatening, 'I feel a nudge, a sense, a beginning of something I'd like to explore' might go better than 'God has told me to.' It is good practice for pastoral ministry! Your SD might be able to help you do this. I'm really glad you have a good one.

My sense is that the new system is more about group discernment in the early stages. It feels more affirming than the previous system and more slow burn than it was. My role is similar to the examining chaplain so I see people about 1/3 of the way through and I see a lot of work to be done but that isn't a problem.

Thank you

[MrsTulip]

@Sproutingpotatoes

I'm starting this process too (in a different denomination) and in my experience (and the experience of a couple of friends too), you're unlikely to get a thunderbolt from heaven saying 'do it'! Instead it's often a gentle warming-up process beginning with not being horrified by the idea, which then progresses to feeling intrigued and so forth.

The discernment process is all about knocking on a series of doors and as each one opens, you take a couple of steps forward and knock at the next one. If one slams in your face, you regroup and then approach the next door cautiously.

I understand your reticence about sharing it too widely. I think it's an intensely personal thing and in my case, there was initially a fear that people might laugh or think I'd be terrible at it. Funny thing is, once I opened up to a couple of trusted friends, they both smiled. They said they'd both had the same thought about me and wholeheartedly agreed I should go for it.

It's definitely not been a thunderbolt, started with a few people (a dad at a after school fresh expression I run alongside the school vicar, someone I did some children's ministry training alongside and a girlguiding friend who I run Rainbows with) saying Mrs Tulip have you ever thought about being ordained you'd be really good at X,Y and Z.
It then started being a niggly feeling and a good friend (who is ordained but I've known her 20 plus years, so before she was ordained) who said it as she thought my reaction was funny, then said seriously you should look into you have a lot to offer, it then became more of a persistent nagging from God very similar to when I was discerning children's authorised lay ministry, and the more I try to ignore it or tell God no the more he seems to nag.

[Catinabeanbag]

Do you have someone in your diocese who's a vocations advisor, or director of ordinands or similar? Might you be able to contact them on a 'putting out feelers' basis (and explain why it's hard to talk to your vicar at the moment)?
Sometimes someone who doesn't know us can look at things more objectively and say 'yes it does seem like this needs to be explored further' and so on.

[MrsTulip]

@Catinabeanbag

Do you have someone in your diocese who's a vocations advisor, or director of ordinands or similar? Might you be able to contact them on a 'putting out feelers' basis (and explain why it's hard to talk to your vicar at the moment)?
Sometimes someone who doesn't know us can look at things more objectively and say 'yes it does seem like this needs to be explored further' and so on.

Yes we have a vocations advisor and she is lovely, I've chatted to her a few times although not about vocations! She might be well placed to advise as she knows both the people who had successful BAPs and our church warden (and the wardens own discernment journey).
I will drop her an email later today

[eveoha]

Can I ask what a ‘BAP’ is.

[MrsTulip]

@eveoha

Can I ask what a ‘BAP’ is.

Bishops advisory panel- its basically a big interview

[eveoha]

Oh I’m sure it is 🙄and absolutely certain not one of the Apostles went through that arcane academic process _ be known by your actions not by your dog collar -

[CremeEggsForBreakfast]

@eveoha

Oh I’m sure it is 🙄and absolutely certain not one of the Apostles went through that arcane academic process _ be known by your actions not by your dog collar -

No, I doubt they did.

But the church was a lot smaller then and as Jesus himself was leading and then passed the responsibility onto those he knew personally the system of accountability was very different.

As you see in the late New Testament, there are clearly defined roles such as deacon and bishop and overseer and guidance issued on how to select people for these roles so a selection process isn't unbiblical.

I have been in non-denominational churches with no formal accountability, structure, or selection criteria other than "I heard a word from God" and they can get very messy.

The Church of England is far from perfect but their desire to appoint the right people is evident and I, as a congregation member, appreciate it.

[eveoha]

Oh Jesus will be weeping - what does ‘unbiblical’ mean? And and do these vestmented fools not realise how fallible they are and how many lives ruined 😡 prayers assured 🙏🏽

[CremeEggsForBreakfast]

@eveoha

Oh Jesus will be weeping - what does ‘unbiblical’ mean? And and do these vestmented fools not realise how fallible they are and how many lives ruined 😡 prayers assured 🙏🏽

Yes. Any good vicar absolutely will know they are imperfect. The long, thorough testing and interview process is designed to weed out as many people with a god-complex as possible.

I know well that people have been hurt - and even traumatised - by church and religion. Our hearts break for them and we do not support the teachings and practices that were used to harm these people.

This poster is, we assume, going into this job to try to right wrongs and be a positive force for good and change in the world.
I'm not sure why you're posting if you do not have anything helpful to say.