The Muslim's holy book, al-Qur'an (the recital)

[Memeandmeagain]

Hello everyone.

I am just curious to learn how God (Allah) is described or mentioned in other religious books?

As you know, as an articles of belief, Muslims believe in every single Prophet that God have sent over time to different nations. From Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus (peace be upon them all) to the last and final Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him).

Muslims believe the Qur'an is the literal word of God.

In many places in the Qur'an, God tells us some of his qualities and attributes so that we can comprehend who God is and not rely on just having faith.

Qur'an asks its readers to use knowledge, wisdom and evidence to know and believe in God's existence.

The following verse is an example :-

Meaning in English (Qur'an is only in Arabic, everything else is an interpretation of human translators).

Allah – there is no deity except Him, the Ever-Living, the Sustainer of [all] existence.
Neither drowsiness overtakes Him nor sleep.
To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. Who is it that can intercede with Him except by His permission?
He knows what is [presently] before them and what will be after them, and they encompass not a thing of His knowledge except for what He wills.
His Kursi (Throne) extends over the heavens and the earth, and their preservation tires Him not.
And He is the Most High, the Most Great.

And in another verse.

He is Allah—there is no god ˹worthy of worship˺ except Him: Knower of the seen and unseen. He is the Most Compassionate, Most Merciful.

He is Allah—there is no god except Him: the King, the Most Holy, the All-Perfect, the Source of Serenity, the Watcher ˹of all˺, the Almighty, the Supreme in Might, the Majestic. Glorified is Allah far above what they associate with Him ˹in worship˺!

He is Allah: the Creator, the Inventor, the Shaper. He ˹alone˺ has the Most Beautiful Names. Whatever is in the heavens and the earth ˹constantly˺ glorifies Him. And He is the Almighty, All-Wise.

Is there anything similar in other religious books?

Sorry for the long post.

Peace.

@Drunkpanda

The purpose, afaik, of the Qur'an was to be a direct communication from God to his people. This had happened to some extent with earlier holy books but because they had been translated and interpreted the true, accurate meaning was lost over time. So, the Qur'an was basically dictated by God and was not to be altered - this would avoid the shortcomings of the other holy books. This seems a big advantage. The but for me is that the advantage reduces if the majority of people following the religion cannot actually understand the language, and so are relying on translations and interpretations anyway (and ones done by less academic people than "official" translations would be. That's not to say of course that it stops people following the 5 pillars and being a good Muslim, it doesn't, it's a comment specifically about the Qur'an. Something I am interested in.

Yes, the Qur'an in Arabic is revelation from God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) and is verbatim letter by letter and it is the same as it was revelad nearly 1,500 years ago.

Whether someone who is a non Muslim believe it or not but, God promised that He has revealed it and He shall guard it from correction unlke the previous scriptures where not a single one original copy exists today.

Meaning in English:

Indeed, it is We who sent down the message [i.e., the Qur’ān], and indeed, We will be its guardian. (chapter 15:09)

There is not a single secipture anywhere that exists today remained unchanged to the letter for all this long.

And I don't recall saying majority of the people following the religion cannot actually understand the language?

If I did, then it's my mistake and I am wrong.

I thought I had said, around 80% are none Arab, which is not the same as them not understanding the Qur'an? You can perfectly understand the Qur'an you need for your daily life. Anything more is a bonus.

It's like saying all Jewish and Christians just because they can read the bible in English they all can understand it's meanings and act upon it.

How is it even possible to know out of that 80%, how many do or don't understand the Qur'an?

The fundamental point is this, we still have the orginal Qur'an, no other religion has nor can they claim what they have is what was revealed at that time to that Prophet? Muslims can and that is one of the core difference between other religion of the world

We can go back to the orginial source and check if any Imam or Scholar is making things up or misinterpreting things, that is the beauty of Islam, but can any other religion do that? Answer is no, because they do not have any authentic text and that is the truth, though some may not like it.

We can go back to the orginial source and check if any Imam or Scholar is making things up or misinterpreting things, that is the beauty of Islam, but can any other religion do that? Answer is no, because they do not have any authentic text and that is the truth, though some may not like it.

I can see how that strengthens your faith.

What Christians have is the Holy Spirit with them and in them, directing them, prompting them, moving them to act. In addition, I personally pray, always, that I am obedient to God's Will which is certainly a prayer which can be prayed in faith. And The Lord's Prayer prays for God's Will to be done too.

God be with you. X

I’ve read this with interest, although the actual manner of discussion feels a bit evangelical and that always puts me off!

I have studied the Abrahamic religions extensively and lived in both a catholic majority and a Muslim majority country, in addition to the U.K. which has Christian values but tolerant of other religions. I do not claim to be anything near an expert or even very knowledgeable and find it interesting to hear opinions and have my mind and heart challenged.

The issue I always see is that religions really attract people with narcissistic personality traits, while demanding its adherents be ever so humble and enabling. It’s always hard to be any kind of leader and retain humility, but even followers can be very self righteous because they see themselves as the true believers and therefore better than everyone else.

It’s this attitude that puts me off religion, however much I love and live the “treat others as you wish to be treated” of Jesus, or respect Muhammad’s (pbuh) wisdom and values. But everybody is too busy saying here’s why my understanding/way is the best, and that doesn’t actually change the situation of the needy or bring peace or any other good things.

I’m sure you could say I’m letting the jinn in my heart win for saying such things. My intention is not to offend or criticise unjustly. We are all flawed and human, a mix of good and bad that helps us understand both. I just wonder if the narcissistic elements put others off too and that’s why the U.K. is often judged as “godless” by those who narcissistically think their way is superior. I would be interested in hearing any Christian or Muslim opinions on whether they think religions empower narcissists while demanding humility and acquiescence.

@Memeandmeagain Salam, just wanted to say your replies/posts are very well composed and well-worded. May Allah bless you!

@WeeTattieBogle

It is true that 80% of Muslims are non Arab which goes to show you don't need to be an Arab to understand and live by the Qur’an

A native speaker of any language will usually be more able than others to understand any book written in their language.

And again, from personal experience, some of the ideas my children have come across from other Muslims (whilst studying in the west for eg) have made them wonder just who it as that taught them. Its to the extent that one of my children informed her university she’d not sit through another talk by two people who’d been brought in via the Muslim students association to introduce Islam and answer questions etc from a group of student teachers such was the inaccuracies in what they were saying - all of which was down to poor standard of understanding by the person who’d taught them. My daughter even asked them what language they’d done their learning in and was told by them they’d been taught in their own language after someone who only knew Arabic from the Holy Quran translated for it for them.

Such was the mess they made of the talk that my daughter was then asked to do the next question and answer session after she made her complaint. Not that she did as what she’d just sat through and had to correct was enough for her.

I really hope that it was made abundantly clear that this was a matter of opinion, if another student was asked to ‘correct’ the other students mistakes for the class after your daughter declined.

Religion is interpreted to a degree by everyone who practices it. Even if you rely 100% on your religious leaders, rather than interpreting things yourself.

There are a great many Muslim scholars who are still debating how passages of the Qur’an should be interpreted. Lots of these people are native Arabic speakers. Whose to say that one person’s voice is more important than someone else’s?

Unless there was a worry that the original students we’re sending a highly dangerous message, it is intolerant to suggest that their interpretation is worth less than your daughter’s.

There should be no room for religious intolerance at a university (or anywhere, ideally).

Healthy debate is great, but simply placing your voice above others isn’t.

I would be interested in hearing any Christian or Muslim opinions on whether they think religions empower narcissists while demanding humility and acquiescence.

I think narcissism is a feature of human societies, of all religions and none. I agree, it exists because of our human flaws. I'm sorry you associate evangelism with narcissism, it can be difficult to discuss strongly held beliefs with someone who has (apparently) conflicting beliefs without defending your own or at least attempting to explain them. I guess for full understanding of anything it is always worth suffering some cognitive dissonance in order to see if there is some possible link between two apparently conflicting ideas. It's something I attempt to do although with varying degrees of success! I think one key to this is to try and relax and see the good in everyone. Not be too sceptical or suspicious.

Thanks for your response @glimpsing and you’re not wrong that narcissists exist in many places. My concern is that they are more attracted to religious structures (and political ones) than non narcissists (we all have a degree of narcissism though of course! And this can lead to exploitation.

I’m not sure I agree that the answer is to try and relax and not be suspicious. I don’t think that attitude helps the vulnerable, usually women and children who get taken advantage of because their compliance, obedience and ignorance is seen as a virtue and further exploited.

We shouldn’t judge religions by their best if we’re not allowed to examine their worst.

I’m not sure I agree that the answer is to try and relax and not be suspicious. I don’t think that attitude helps the vulnerable, usually women and children who get taken advantage of because their compliance, obedience and ignorance is seen as a virtue and further exploited.

I think it's important to note I said 'too suspicious' as in not overly suspicious. Yes, being too gullible can cause problems but so can being overly suspicious. It can be a cause of strife, conflict and prejudice where there was previously none.

there should be no room for religious intolerance at a university (or anywhere, ideally)

Unfortunately the speakers weren’t aware of that/or it was something they were aware off but had decided against getting on board with and were (to say the very least) an embarrassment (and mis-informed) which is bad at the best of times let alone at a time when Muslims everywhere were having to take the flack for the actions of other Muslims - all the whilst whilst trying their best to present Islam in a positive light.

Sorry just add - all the speakers did that day was score own goals and perpetuate much of the nonsense in the public domain regarding Islam.

again - I won’t come back to the thread regardless of how rude it may make me appear. It really doesn’t need the distraction.

I think it's important to note I said 'too suspicious' as in not overly suspicious. Yes, being too gullible can cause problems but so can being overly suspicious. It can be a cause of strife, conflict and prejudice where there was previously none.

Strife, conflict and prejudice for who though? Surely this kind of thinking reinforces the power structures that narcissists take advantage of? And what is too suspicious in your opinion? Surely those who have seen and experienced harm have a wider scope of suspicion as they know what warning signs to look for? So one persons “too suspicious” could be another vulnerable persons lifeline. The middle way of not examining the extremes of good and bad maybe be an virtue for some, but in reality does not prevent harm as much as we would wish it to.

@Uncomplicated

My Child,

You may not know me, but I know everything about you.

Psalm 139:1

I know when you sit down and when you rise up.

Psalm 139:2

I am familiar with all your ways.

Psalm 139:3

Even the very hairs on your head are numbered.

Matthew 10:29-31

For you were made in my image.

Genesis 1:27

In me you live and move and have your being.

Acts 17:28

For you are my offspring.
Acts 17:28

I knew you even before you were conceived.

Jeremiah 1:4-5

I chose you when I planned creation.
Ephesians 1:11-12

You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book.

Psalm 139:15-16

I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live.
Acts 17:26

You are fearfully and wonderfully made.
Psalm 139:14

I knit you together in your mother's womb.
Psalm 139:13

And brought you forth on the day you were born.
Psalm 71:6

I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me.
John 8:41-44

I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love.
1 John 4:16

And it is my desire to lavish my love on you.
1 John 3:1

Simply because you are my child and I am your Father.

1 John 3:1

I offer you more than your earthly father ever could.
Matthew 7:11

For I am the perfect father.
Matthew 5:48

Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand.
James 1:17

For I am your provider and I meet all your needs.
Matthew 6:31-33

My plan for your future has always been filled with hope.
Jeremiah 29:11

Because I love you with an everlasting love.
Jeremiah 31:3

My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore.
Psalm 139:17-18

And I rejoice over you with singing.
Zephaniah 3:17

I will never stop doing good to you.
Jeremiah 32:40

For you are my treasured possession.
Exodus 19:5

I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul.
Jeremiah 32:41

And I want to show you great and marvelous things.
Jeremiah 33:3

If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me.
Deuteronomy 4:29

Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart.
Psalm 37:4

For it is I who gave you those desires.
Philippians 2:13

I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine.
Ephesians 3:20

For I am your greatest encourager.
2 Thessalonians 2:16-17

I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles.
2 Corinthians 1:3-4

When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you.
Psalm 34:18

As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart.
Isaiah 40:11

One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes.
Revelation 21:3-4

And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth.
Revelation 21:3-4

I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus.
John 17:23

For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed.
John 17:26

He is the exact representation of my being.
Hebrews 1:3

He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you.
Romans 8:31

And to tell you that I am not counting your sins.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19

His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you.
1 John 4:10

I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love.
Romans 8:31-32

If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me.
1 John 2:23

And nothing will ever separate you from my love again.
Romans 8:38-39

Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen.
Luke 15:7

I have always been Father, and will always be Father.
Ephesians 3:14-15

My question is…Will you be my child?
John 1:12-13

I am waiting for you.
Luke 15:11-32

Love, Your Dad.

Almighty God

@Uncomplicated this is beautiful. Can I ask where it's from?

The middle way of not examining the extremes of good and bad maybe be an virtue for some, but in reality does not prevent harm as much as we would wish it to.

Bu all means examine them but recognise you might not be right. There will be information you have no access to. A person can keep themselves from harms way without being overly judgmental of others. And how to decide? It's a continuous learning process which changes with each context. And people will get it wrong from time to time but that's not a reason to not try and cut off from everything. That would be equally as detrimental.

What do you mean by “cut off from everything”? You’re answer is a bit vague, without examples I’m not sure what we are discussing at this point?

Are you assuming I’m an atheist? And as such “cut off?” I follow the golden rule of Jesus and have no need for religious hierarchy beyond that.

The people I am concerned about are children and women who are taken advantage of by narcissists within religious organisations. For example sexual abuse of children by priests, quick nikkahs and annulments against the woman’s wishes to permit sex. The treatment of anyone not in the religious community as “godless” and lesser than the members which permits their abuse or denigration. If everyone was humble this wouldn’t happen, but the narcissism of saying “my belief and community is better/the best” seems to permit a lot of bad outcomes.

Of course people get a lot of benefit from religious faith and it can be powerful motivation to do good deeds, but that does not absolve the horrors that are also done in the name of religion. You seem to be arguing that it does, or it doesn’t warrant a critical eye or reparations to the wronged party because somebody might consider it too judgemental? Have I understood that correctly? Surely the right thing to do is change thing s so the innocent cannot be exploited, don’t you agree?

@ mooscow www.fathersloveletter.com/media-center.html

What do you mean by “cut off from everything”? You’re answer is a bit vague, without examples I’m not sure what we are discussing at this point?

I mean from life in general, from other people. I'm not talking about absolving horrors, I'm talking about not being so judgemental and suspicious of people it makes a person continually anxious and frightened of everything and everyone they perceive to be different from them. And absolutely defend the innocent and seek justice but make sure that is what you are doing and not perpetuating prejudice.

I follow the golden rule of Jesus and have no need for religious hierarchy beyond that.

Well, we are in agreement then.

This is confusing. I asked a question about whether religions attract narcissists while asking people to act in ways that enable narcissists. I don’t understand why you are responding with either assumptions about me or a hypothetical person who is suffering for asking questions the way I am asking them? And passing judgements and offering advice? But refusing to cast a critics eye or engage with the question I asked on a deeper level… surely you can see it is a problematic response?

This is confusing. I asked a question about whether religions attract narcissists while asking people to act in ways that enable narcissists. I don’t understand why you are responding with either assumptions about me or a hypothetical person who is suffering for asking questions the way I am asking them? And passing judgements and offering advice? But refusing to cast a critics eye or engage with the question I asked on a deeper level… surely you can see it is a problematic response?

Erm...yes, confusing. I think our wires are well and truly crossed. Something has certainly been lost in translation.

Essentially, I agree with you.

My only modification is not to become too suspicious which would be hostile, in life in general. It's a checks and balances thing. We wouldn't like people to treat us like that, I don't think. No accusations on you.

Your opening post made the association between evangelism and narcissism, I recognised this is a problem, not only with the religious, though.

You criticised people for viewing themselves and their beliefs as superior which I agreed could be a problem. I then talked about being prepared for suffering some cognitive dissonance until further understanding could be gained and also looking for the good in people and what they are saying. About not being overly suspicious because this aids further understanding, essentially.

You then talked about making sure we weren't too gullible and I agreed but again stressed being overly suspicious can cause still prejudice and conflict.

So essentially I'm promoting balance. Not saying you're not. Just talking about my own beliefs. Not in opposition to your's but rather as an exploration and extension of where the boundaries of each of our beliefs might be.

That's my understanding anyway.

Sorry, if my response is problematic but I can only engage according to the understanding I have.

@littlejalapeno

And I don't think anyone can truly answer your question of whether religion attracts narcissists. I mean how would someone go about finding this out. To start with, I'm not qualified to diagnose narcissistic personality disorder and even if I was I could only diagnose it in my patients.

Thank you for the clarification and I understand your perspective on balance. I’m also conscious we might have unwittingly hijacked the OPs thread so my apologies for that.

Perhaps it is an unanswerable question, but I disagree that we’re unqualified to examine narcissistic tendencies and identify them in people and structures. The countless posters on here who have supported each other to identify the narcissistic traits of their partners, families, abusers and how to protect themselves and their families is proof of that. Thanks for the discussion!

You're very welcome, @littlejalapeno.