Is belief voluntary?

[glimpsing]

What do people think? Threads on here have had me pondering this. Some people have said they can't choose their beliefs or lack of them - they just occur or not. Yet society does commonly to hold people accountable for beliefs. There are all sorts of beliefs that are generally not socially acceptable. Personally I think we can choose what to belief, as we encounter new information we can either accept, dismiss it or withhold from forming an opinion on it (as we're not sure where it fits into a bigger picture).

I think the problem with the question in the OP is that it's not always clear exactly what people mean by 'voluntary' or 'choice'.

Presumably we all agree that none of us has been compelled to believe what we currently believe? And I doubt anyone would deny that what we believe has been heavily influenced by our character, culture, experience and upbringing. (Whether those things have pushed us to continue with or to reject the beliefs we were brought up with, that is still an effect of those influences.)

So, in the end, are we actually mostly arguing about semantics? If voluntary = unforced, then I agree, belief is voluntary. If voluntary = consciously deciding purely by exercising of independent will, rather than by inclination resulting from a combination of nature and nurture, then I do not think belief is voluntary. And I suspect that in the cases where people try to just 'decide' to either believe in god or to stop believing in god against their inclinations, it probably doesn't work very well!

I was a rabid atheist (of the arrogant, Richard Dawkins, convinced I was right, all believers are idiots, type!) until I was 36.

Is that why you seem to think all atheists are like that?

So, in the end, are we actually mostly arguing about semantics? If voluntary = unforced, then I agree, belief is voluntary. If voluntary = consciously deciding purely by exercising of independent will, rather than by inclination resulting from a combination of nature and nurture, then I do not think belief is voluntary. And I suspect that in the cases where people try to just 'decide' to either believe in god or to stop believing in god against their inclinations, it probably doesn't work very well!

I think semantics definitely is a strong influence on our varying perspectives on this. The two meanings you have outlined are certainly commonly understood. Although, as we discussed previously upthread, I think human beings can supersede and have agency outside the affects of of a combination of nature and nurture.

voluntary
Pronunciation /ˈvɒlənt(ə)ri/
See synonyms for voluntary
Translate voluntary into Spanish
ADJECTIVE

•   <strong>*1</strong><strong>
</strong>Done, given, or acting of one's own free will.
<span class="italic">‘we are funded by voluntary contributions’</span>

More example sentencesSynonyms
  

•   <strong>*1.1</strong><span class="italic">Physiology</span> Under the conscious control of the brain.
<span class="italic">‘voluntary contraction of the calf muscles’</span>

More example sentences
  

•   <strong>*2</strong><strong>
</strong>Working, done, or maintained without payment.
<span class="italic">‘a voluntary helper’</span>

More example sentencesSynonyms
  

•   <strong>*2.1</strong><span class="italic">Law</span> (of a conveyance or disposition) made without return in money or other consideration.
<span class="italic">‘Section 120 deals with voluntary settlements and marriage settlements.’</span>
  

(https://www.lexico.com/definition/voluntary)

The psychological definition referenced here is interesting. How much control can we individually have over our subconscious?

And it's interesting that payment removes voluntary status of something in the definition...so if someone decides to believe purely for the reward of that (perhaps in status for example) then that belief is not entirely voluntary...thought provoking.

@Ryannah

I don’t see how else you can frame atheism? Billy, Bobby and Barry have different types of sandwiches but they’re all sandwiches. Bertha has no sandwich at all.

Billy, Bobby and Barry choose to bring a sandwich for lunch, Bertha chooses not to. Just different choices.

Babies are born atheists. They never chose not to believe in God, they just have no concept of it.

@depremesnil

Babies are born atheists. They never chose not to believe in God, they just have no concept of it.

How do you know? This is an interesting account in Luke 1:

"39 And Mary arose in those days, and went into the hill country with haste, into a city of Juda;
40 And entered into the house of Zacharias, and saluted Elisabeth.
41 And it came to pass, that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost:
42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy."

And it is a common observation amongst mothers that their babies, even before they are born are responsive towards what they sense from different people, different emotions etc

It is a fascinating topic to consider how and when beliefs may occur, can they occur even before language and conceptualisation is fully formed? And language acquisition has actually been observed from very young ages.

How could a newborn baby possibly know what god is?

It's like saying that your baby loves cats, before they have ever seen or heard of cats.

@depremesnil

It's like saying that your baby loves cats, before they have ever seen or heard of cats.

Not quite. The unborn baby in the passage I quoted experienced God. I'm talking about beliefs concerning initial encounters.

@depremesnil

How could a newborn baby possibly know what god is?

Perhaps an element of this is innate within humans?

Perhaps an element of this is innate within humans?

But plenty of people go their whole lives without ever believing in god, including me. They may even go their whole lives without ever having heard of god, especially the Christian god in particular.

But plenty of people go their whole lives without ever believing in god, including me. They may even go their whole lives without ever having heard of god, especially the Christian god in particular.

It could be a choice to ignore what is of and from God/ experience of God or a choice not to believe it or in it. But I believe God is essentially love, further more if people have love in them, they have God in them and most people have some experience of / show love even if they don't share the same Christian language.

So we get back to the question in the op...

further more if people have love in them, they have God in them

Speak for yourself.

It's my belief concerning anyone with love in them @depremesnil.

Not quite. The unborn baby in the passage I quoted experienced God.

The baby in a story experienced god.

I believe it's true, @lazylinguist.

The fact that the example you have given is the exact story told to millions of children about Father Christmas which is acknowledged as fiction surely show that it is easy to "throw off the yoke". It is a definite choice for a grown, mentally competent adult to ignore scientific fact.

I don't really think FC and God are comparable though. If my DC put their stockings out on Christmas eve and I don't fill them, they will still be empty in the morning. The same can be said of every person on earth. Therefore that's proof that FC doesn't exist. Isn't it?
The same can't be done with God. Sure science has proved/explained a lot of the Bible stories. Evolution for example. But that's not proof that God doesn't exist. It just proves that a lot of the Bible was made up by humans to explain what was, at the time, unexplainable. And i don't know any Christians who believe 100% of the Bible.

Back to the original question, I do think nurture plays a part. I was raised going to Church. I don't know what I'd believe if i hadn't been. My siblings don't believe despite the same upbringing. I have friends who have become Christian or Muslim as adults from an atheist upbringing. I know people who have switched from Christian to Muslim and vice versa. I know people who have been religious and now aren't. So it's not as simple as just upbringing imo.

I believe it's true, @lazylinguist.

Wow - ok. But, I mean... babies 'leap in the womb' all the time, in response to who knows what. So even if the story really were a true report of a real event, it's not as if even Elizabeth or Mary themselves could have known what the baby was responding to. Maybe it just liked the sound of Mary's voice, or Elizabeth had just eaten something bit spucy for lunch . Or more likely the baby was reacting to Elizabeth's response to what Mary said. Extrapolating that it meant the baby believed in god would be a huge leap even based on what the text actually days!

Elizabeth is just interpreting it that way because of her own feelings. You might just as well say "Wow - my unborn baby moved when you said cat! He must love cats!"

But I believe God is essentially love, further more if people have love in them, they have God in them

I thought everyone was supposed to have god in them? What about if you compare, say, a priest who has abused children and an atheist who has lived a good life, helped others, given to charity etc? Does the priest not have god in him, even if he is a total believer? And can we not credit the atheist for doing good of his own volition, sunce it's because he has god in him (even though he's sure he doesn't and nobody has any proof god exists)?

The same can't be done with God. Sure science has proved/explained a lot of the Bible stories. Evolution for example. But that's not proof that God doesn't exist. It just proves that a lot of the Bible was made up by humans to explain what was, at the time, unexplainable. And i don't know any Christians who believe 100% of the Bible.

Maybe not. But it is proof that people are choosing to believe what is written or that "God" is real

@ImNotWhoYouThinkIam
Sure science has proved/explained a lot of the Bible stories. Evolution for example
And i don't know any Christians who believe 100% of the Bible.

Therefore they are voluntarily choosing which parts of religion to believe,

@ForTheLoveOfSleep

The same can't be done with God. Sure science has proved/explained a lot of the Bible stories. Evolution for example. But that's not proof that God doesn't exist. It just proves that a lot of the Bible was made up by humans to explain what was, at the time, unexplainable. And i don't know any Christians who believe 100% of the Bible.

Maybe not. But it is proof that people are choosing to believe what is written or that "God" is real

Maybe. Like I said in my first post I've tried not to believe. I can't. Maybe I chose to believe at some point in the past, influenced by my upbringing of course. But I can't choose not to believe now. My own personal experiences won't allow me.

I had a super anti-religious upbringing yet I have a super strong belief in God. I never used to, its relatively new and I believe in my heart I was 'saved'. But because my faith is quite new, I can still understand how people don't understand my views and share my beliefs. I'll explain to those who want me to and won't to those who strongly dislike it.

I thought everyone was supposed to have god in them? What about if you compare, say, a priest who has abused children and an atheist who has lived a good life, helped others, given to charity etc? Does the priest not have god in him, even if he is a total believer?
I don't know, are you expecting me to judge? I'd just do all I could in my power to encourage what I felt was good and stop what I felt was bad and harmful. 🤷‍♀️

And can we not credit the atheist for doing good of his own volition, sunce it's because he has god in him (even though he's sure he doesn't and nobody has any proof god exists)?

Well, not entirely, not according to you, either, @lazylinguist, that is, if you are consistent with what you posted upthread. A combination of his genetic heritage and upbringing would totally control what he believed was good and compel him to act, from the perspective you expressed...