Is belief voluntary?

[glimpsing]

What do people think? Threads on here have had me pondering this. Some people have said they can't choose their beliefs or lack of them - they just occur or not. Yet society does commonly to hold people accountable for beliefs. There are all sorts of beliefs that are generally not socially acceptable. Personally I think we can choose what to belief, as we encounter new information we can either accept, dismiss it or withhold from forming an opinion on it (as we're not sure where it fits into a bigger picture).

@IHateCoronavirus, so what do you believe about heaven? Does admission involve accountability for beliefs?

Ah, interesting. So you believe in spirit as a phenomenon then?

No. I meant that it is a fact that those people consider their beliefs to be of spiritual significance to them, going by the general definition of the word 'spiritual'. I don't believe in souls, spirits, gods, ghosts or anything supernatural whatsoever.

Blind belief is ignorance. Consciously acknowledging a belief and actively choosing it is not blind.

To me, blind belief is belief with no proof or factual basis at all. So to me all religious belief is blind belief. Of course we all have to decide whether things are believable or not on a pretty much daily basis - e.g. every time we read an article in the paper or in the internet. And we might belueve scientific research without personal understanding of the details. But that's a bit different from deciding on basing your moral compass and beliefs about the purpose of life and existence on something for which there is absolutely no proof whatsoever.

@Sirzy

I think our beliefs can, and do, change over time and societal influences can contribute to that. It’s too complex an issue for it to be classed as a choice though although we can obviously all choose which parts of beliefs we openly discuss (so someone spouting homophobic rubbish and trying to defend it as their beliefs would still be unreasonable)

Yes, it certainly is complex. Hence the question.

At what point does society not hold an individual responsible, in terms of them having agency, for their offensive beliefs expressed? I think in a court of law it would be insanity...

What you say you believe is voluntary, but your actual belief is founded by what you hold as axiomatic, which I don't think is immutable but also can't really be voluntary.

At what point does society not hold an individual responsible, in terms of them having agency, for their offensive beliefs expressed? I think in a court of law it would be insanity...

People are entitled to their beliefs. How they act on them is what is governed by the law. Expressing violent or offensive views is different from having a belief.

[quote glimpsing]**@IHateCoronavirus, so what do you believe about heaven? Does admission involve accountability for beliefs?[/quote]
So the way it feels for me (as I identify it as a feeling, sort of intuitive rather than anything else) is this. Heaven is all around us rather than somewhere other, although being in heaven would be like seeing it from another perspective, more light perhaps. Definitely more understanding, and general feelings of peace and acceptance. I feel a souls experience of heaven would be subjective rather than prescribed.
I feel admittance to heaven is based on ‘goodness’ and also level of suffering in life. So those who experience hardships/pain/fear etc, get taken straight there (unless they have caused equal levels of suffering or more).
that’s how it works in my head.

No. I meant that it is a fact that those people consider their beliefs to be of spiritual significance to them, going by the general definition of the word 'spiritual'. I don't believe in souls, spirits, gods, ghosts or anything supernatural whatsoever.

Ah, I see. Although, I do believe spirit is observable in it's effects, on people or groups of people, for example as in 'Zeitgeist'. As the definition is an entity which is non corporal there is no physical proof. Once it is manifest physically it would become physical and thus a physical phenomenon. 'Spontaneous' unexplained physical phenomenon can occur.

To me, blind belief is belief with no proof or factual basis at all. So to me all religious belief is blind belief. Of course we all have to decide whether things are believable or not on a pretty much daily basis - e.g. every time we read an article in the paper or in the internet. And we might belueve scientific research without personal understanding of the details. But that's a bit different from deciding on basing your moral compass and beliefs about the purpose of life and existence on something for which there is absolutely no proof whatsoever.

@lazylinguist, there is proof in lived experience, though, in terms of whether a belief has been enriching and beneficial to self and others or not.

Depends what you mean by 'beliefs' secular beliefs you can change based on evidence and reason, and you should.

Spiritual/ religious beliefs are, I would argue, based on faith. The whole point of faith is that you believe regardless of having solid irrefutable evidence to back it up.

Having said that, I would love to have faith and have tried but I just can't. I just don't believe any of it. Even though I want to.

@lazylinguist

At what point does society not hold an individual responsible, in terms of them having agency, for their offensive beliefs expressed? I think in a court of law it would be insanity...

People are entitled to their beliefs. How they act on them is what is governed by the law. Expressing violent or offensive views is different from having a belief.

Yes, I agree. But (conscious) actions are generally preceded by a belief.

@IHateCoronavirus, how do you think goodness is determined? Is it affected by belief?

@TableTopTennis

Depends what you mean by 'beliefs' secular beliefs you can change based on evidence and reason, and you should.

Spiritual/ religious beliefs are, I would argue, based on faith. The whole point of faith is that you believe regardless of having solid irrefutable evidence to back it up.

Having said that, I would love to have faith and have tried but I just can't. I just don't believe any of it. Even though I want to.

Religious faith does develop, though, as understanding develops. The evidence, though, is more of the lived experience type and historical evidence which always requires interpretation. However, science always requires interpretation too and there are priors, variables and assumptions always in the methodology no one can get away from. I think the difference is in structural methodology and observability/ measurability of results.

I think ‘goodness’ is based on intent. Was the intent to bring positivity to the world or do harm? I think the inspiration or source of the ‘good’ act depends on the individual. It may be based on belief, it may be based on experience, learned shared values etc.
It isn’t my place to judge whether someone else’s act is good/bad etc as it is so subjective. but I have my own internal moral compass that I live by.

@BreadPita

What you say you believe is voluntary, but your actual belief is founded by what you hold as axiomatic, which I don't think is immutable but also can't really be voluntary.

But you can choose that initial belief, as to whether something is actually unquestionable. And even if something is believed to be unquestionable you can question your own understanding of it. (Which I do frequently!)

@IHateCoronavirus, that makes sense.

I think some people are more willing and able to believe in things that have no tangible proof than others. I think that this is nature but I think nurture then plays an even bigger part while you are a child at least.

@Tal45

I think some people are more willing and able to believe in things that have no tangible proof than others. I think that this is nature but I think nurture then plays an even bigger part while you are a child at least.

So are we just a passive product of a unique combination of nature and nurture or do we actively engage with this combination?

Interesting question! I think the answer is some beliefs are voluntary, some not, as we don’t even know we believe them as society has grounded it into us, we know no difference.

For instance, a relative took my son out, whilst in the car, an accident occurred and my son was injured and had to go hospital, (he had a broken arm but otherwise ok). Even though I wasn’t there, it was my fault, and I felt absolutely awful and ridden with guilt, in reality this is because society holds the mothers accountable, they feel the guilt even when everyone is telling them it’s just an accident and these things happen. I still feel guilty, because society has made me believe I’m the one responsible even for an accident I wasn’t in attendance too. No one seemed to have to reassure my husband it wasn’t his fault, if anything people seemed to be saying to him that he should not be to hasty towards my relative and it was an accident, which was weird, as my husband is not violent at all and didn’t feel anger, he was only concerned.
Beliefs make people act that way to different sexes.

So are we just a passive product of a unique combination of nature and nurture or do we actively engage with this combination?

It depends on whether those unique combinations of nurture and nature have taught the person they the ability to change/control/engage in those beliefs, or whether the ability to engage has been discouraged/denied.

A little like the person who loves studying science but received the message, through life experiences and values picked up during childhood and adolescence, that ‘university is not for the likes of me.’

@Rainbowheart1 , good point.

Yes, I agree that unconscious (ignorant) beliefs can be an almost involuntary reaction. I say almost involuntary because once they are questioned they can often be let go of or refined. However, at the point in time of reactionary belief they can be involuntary as the thought or feeling occurs.

I think, though, if person becomes practiced in questioning their individual feelings and thoughts, reflecting on them and considering whether they are correct this reactionary involuntary response becomes less predominant. Also if the socialisation of values which affects the subconscious in this way is replaced with an alternative socialisation of sorts by engaging with a different belief system these reactionary thoughts / feelings will change in their nature.

@glimpsing I'm not sure I value doubt and skepticism when thinking about religion (although definitely think they are essential in small doses for other aspects of life like politics). I don't think I "don't want to" believe. At times I have really yearned for belief, especially after my DD died, so I think it is something in the way I am (probably a big part nature and some nurture) that I don't have the capacity to take that leap of faith.

@IHateCoronavirus

So are we just a passive product of a unique combination of nature and nurture or do we actively engage with this combination?

It depends on whether those unique combinations of nurture and nature have taught the person they the ability to change/control/engage in those beliefs, or whether the ability to engage has been discouraged/denied.

A little like the person who loves studying science but received the message, through life experiences and values picked up during childhood and adolescence, that ‘university is not for the likes of me.’

Hmm, I can see how this can work as a mechanism. However, for it to affectively completely control a person's whole belief system I think they would have to be pretty isolated away from the diverse and varied societal influences which exist now.

@ThisOneNow, sorry to hear about the death of your daughter. That must be unimaginably hard.

I think intense grief can make hope very difficult and I think I have come to the conclusion the faith type of belief does involve hope. There are such a lot of feelings to process, it can take a lot of time to work through them all.

So are we just a passive product of a unique combination of nature and nurture or do we actively engage with this combination?

We actively engage, but the choices we make in selecting how to actively engage are still inevitably influenced by nature and nurture. How could they not be? How can anything you do possibly not be influenced by your nature? Or by things you have learned, seen and experienced since birth?

A lot of what we believe is based on our upbringing.

If you'd been born to devout Muslims you'd almost certainly be brought up Muslim. Same if you were Hindu, Christian etc, relatively few question their belief and even those that do often still have it linger.
Most of question because we've been brought up that way.