Is belief voluntary?

[glimpsing]

What do people think? Threads on here have had me pondering this. Some people have said they can't choose their beliefs or lack of them - they just occur or not. Yet society does commonly to hold people accountable for beliefs. There are all sorts of beliefs that are generally not socially acceptable. Personally I think we can choose what to belief, as we encounter new information we can either accept, dismiss it or withhold from forming an opinion on it (as we're not sure where it fits into a bigger picture).

@lazylinguist

Yes, it would be present in the physical world as it would manifest into somebody's brain physiology as a result of biological responses.

I'm not sure the brain experts would agree with you on that one...

Differences in brain physiology have been noted in people with certain types of psychosis, mental illnesses, and people with sensory perception divergences though. My theory is just an extension of these type of observations from brain scans. (I was an avid reader of New Scientist for years. Remember reading several articles in the research). I don't think my ideas are that strange.

And in some (milder) cases talking therapies such as CBT are used as treatment.

For me (as a person with an extreme dislike for religion) religious beliefs are a choice. A choice where, when presented with evidence of the falsehoods within religion, a person decides whether or not accept said evidence. Therefore choosing to believe rather than accept facts.

@ForTheLoveOfSleep

For me (as a person with an extreme dislike for religion) religious beliefs are a choice. A choice where, when presented with evidence of the falsehoods within religion, a person decides whether or not accept said evidence. Therefore choosing to believe rather than accept facts.

Hmm, antitheism sound as faith based as many religions. More maybe, since uncertainty and mystery is acknowledged and what's more actively embraced in religions instead as being framed as plain 'fact'.

Thanks for this thread. I've been an atheist all my life but I have recently started reading the bible and praying. I'm not sure why I started feeling that spirituality was missing from my life, but it has definitely been a conscious choice to try out a religion and to choose to believe in god. Or at least to try. I fail at this all the time! It's interesting. I choose to believe and want to believe but mostly I don't believe.

I guess this is where the concept of faith comes in.

You're welcome, @beastlyslumber. I'm pleased people have replied, I have enjoyed reading and thinking about all the responses.

Hmm, antitheism sound as faith based as many religions.

I'm not so sure. When people talk about being anti-religion (rather than just being atheists) they are usually referring to the very real and detrimental effects that organised religion and the actions and regimes of its leaders and proponents have had and continue to have on society and on individuals. It doesn't require faith to see that. It's there in black and white throughout the pages of history and still in the news today. Most anti-religionists are obviously also atheists, but you do get some people who believe in god but hate organised religion.

Personally I think that blaming religion for all of that is a bit like blaming the gun rather than the person who pulled the trigger. Religion may have started as a way for primitive people to make sense of aspects of the world they didn't understand, but it didn't take long for it to become a tool for power and control.

@ForTheLoveOfSleep

For me (as a person with an extreme dislike for religion) religious beliefs are a choice. A choice where, when presented with evidence of the falsehoods within religion, a person decides whether or not accept said evidence. Therefore choosing to believe rather than accept facts.

It really isn’t that straightforward. If you’ve been told something repeatedly from birth - and confirmation bias seems to be evidence, ‘I told you if you were good and went to church then X would happen and it did’ - it’s not as simple as acknowledging at some point that it isn’t scientific and throwing off the yoke. Honestly it isn’t.

@lazylinguist, but it's not just religions, other belief systems and ideologies can be equally detrimental. I think belief is extremely powerful. That power have a positive or negative effect.

I once read an interesting book called 'Religion for Atheists' by Alain de Botton. He's an atheist, but the basic tenet of the book is that by increasingly turning away from religion, we have kind of thrown the baby away with the bath water. He looks at all the good and positive things people used to get out of having a shared religion that most or all of their community followed (giving examples from various religions) and suggests ways in which society could re-adopt some of those things without any of the bad stuff and without the need to actually believe in god. I must re-read it some time actually. It was quute inspiring and uplifting.

Sorry - that's not really anything to do with the point of the thread . It was your post that made me think of it, @beastlyslumber .

but it's not just religions, other belief systems and ideologies can be equally detrimental

Oh yes definitely. But there's something about thinking you have divine right on your side that makes it easy for people to justify all kinds of things. And there's something particularly abhorrent about people preaching tolerance and kindness (and berating those who they claim don't have enough of it) while perpetrating abuse, intolerance and violence, or hiding and defending those of their flock who do so.

@Glassofshloer It really isn’t that straightforward. If you’ve been told something repeatedly from birth - and confirmation bias seems to be evidence, ‘I told you if you were good and went to church then X would happen and it did’ - it’s not as simple as acknowledging at some point that it isn’t scientific and throwing off the yoke. Honestly it isn’t.

The fact that the example you have given is the exact story told to millions of children about Father Christmas which is acknowledged as fiction surely show that it is easy to "throw off the yoke". It is a definite choice for a grown, mentally competent adult to ignore scientific fact.

@lazylinguist

but it's not just religions, other belief systems and ideologies can be equally detrimental

Oh yes definitely. But there's something about thinking you have divine right on your side that makes it easy for people to justify all kinds of things. And there's something particularly abhorrent about people preaching tolerance and kindness (and berating those who they claim don't have enough of it) while perpetrating abuse, intolerance and violence, or hiding and defending those of their flock who do so.

I agree. Exactly this type of thing is admonished in the New Testament too.

As I said belief can be extremely powerful and utilised for good or evil. People can, as testified on here, (be made to) feel powerless over their beliefs. It's good to acknowledge this and examine how exactly how beliefs can be formed. This enables is to have the ability to respond so we can as a result take responsibility.

@ImNotWhoYouThinkIam

In a religious sense I've tried to stop believing in the the past but can't. There's just something in me that won't "let" me stop. I can't explain it to non believers.

Its not the same as the example by PP (imo) of an apple falling downwards because we can prove that happens. I'd say that's a fact not a belief. Mind you, some people believe the earth is flat even though we can prove it isn't

I'm like this but the opposite way - I would love to have faith, to believe, i think I would like the community of church, I even pray sometimes, but I just can't make myself believe it. I know that there are actual historical figures and events depicted in the bible, so that's part of it I can get on board with, but heaven and hell just feel like nonsense to me.

My DH is like you though and the main difference is that he was raised by catholics and I was raised by atheists. So I do think beliefs are learned really.

The fact that the example you have given is the exact story told to millions of children about Father Christmas which is acknowledged as fiction surely show that it is easy to "throw off the yoke". It is a definite choice for a grown, mentally competent adult to ignore scientific fact.

There are far more sinister forms of brain washing, though, which can be more difficult for people to recover from. Have you read The Magus by John Fowles?

But there's something about thinking you have divine right on your side that makes it easy for people to justify all kinds of things

However, if a person truly acknowledges the omnipotence of God it would be extremely presumptuous to think it easy to justify all kinds of things.

I'm like this but the opposite way - I would love to have faith, to believe, i think I would like the community of church, I even pray sometimes, but I just can't make myself believe it.

You are just the same it's just you're belief that you were brought up with is the 'there is no god' - it's just as much a belief as 'there is a god'.

What an odd question! Of course you choose your beliefs. You’re presented with them and you accept them, sometimes in the face of opposing evidence. As for atheism, a lack of belief is not a belief.

there is no god' - it's just as much a belief as 'there is a god'
Strawberry, chocolate and vanilla are flavours of milkshake. An empty glass is not a flavour of milkshake. Atheism is an empty glass. It’s not a belief, it’s an absence of belief.

@Ryannah

What an odd question! Of course you choose your beliefs. You’re presented with them and you accept them, sometimes in the face of opposing evidence. As for atheism, a lack of belief is not a belief.

I asked in response to the perspectives expressed on several threads on here. And I've got to say the responses I have had back have been interesting.

@Ryannah

there is no god' - it's just as much a belief as 'there is a god' Strawberry, chocolate and vanilla are flavours of milkshake. An empty glass is not a flavour of milkshake. Atheism is an empty glass. It’s not a belief, it’s an absence of belief.

And it would seem people have different perspectives on this as the atheistic stance seems to manifest in a variety of ways.

I don't think so. No matter how much I tried I don't think I could make myself belief that 2+2=5, or pigs could fly, or murder is good, unless I could experience something to make me think that or at least hear a convincing argument. Beliefs come about through experience and exploration of the evidence and arguments, not through choice.

I don’t see how else you can frame atheism? Billy, Bobby and Barry have different types of sandwiches but they’re all sandwiches. Bertha has no sandwich at all.

The atheists on this thread seem to be saying that religious belief is a fantasy that conflicts with “proof based” scientific fact.
I disagree.
Many Christians have had direct personal encounters with the presence of God, and we also have eye witness accounts of the resurrection of Jesus, notably St Paul - a “hostile witness”, who had previously persecuted Christians- and who interviewed St Peter in Rome after his own conversion on the Damascus road.
I am a retired doctor, whose entire training was science based.
I was a rabid atheist (of the arrogant, Richard Dawkins, convinced I was right, all believers are idiots, type!) until I was 36. At which point I experienced the direct presence of God in a life changing and humbling conversion.
I also take issue with those who say religion is bad. The church is one of the biggest providers of social care and charitable activities in the country. My own tiny village church has funded the rebuilding of earthquake damaged houses in Nepal, supported subsistence farmers in Malawi, has a missionary partner who is an obstetrician in rural Pakistan, raises funds for Christian Aid and many local charities, including the food bank, and runs a drop in for lonely villagers.

Modern Christians are not heretic burning mediaevalists. We are actually the most persecuted religion globally, with churches firebombed and worshippers killed. Yet we continue to do our best to love our fellow humans and our God, as Jesus asked us - at the cost of His own life, given in loving sacrifice.