Muslim perspective on feminism?

[BatmansBat]

Hi,

I have started a thread in feminism as I feel that religion often is blamed for suppressing women when in reality it often is men and patriarchal structures.

I believe (and I have found evidence) that Christianity was very pro women in the early days but that the church later took over and women were subjugated and partially written out.

I have also found suggestions and posted links that the prophet Mohammed actually helped women, that he was married to a business woman (Khadija) and that he helped women to gain the right to inherit.

I also have stated that the interpretation of the Koran varies between scholars and that more strict interpretations often are cultural. I am very open to being corrected.

I am being asked questions about child marriage which I cannot answer. I believe that this was a cultural thing at the time and that the age of Aisha at the time of marriage is debated by scholars. Would any Muslim posters be interested in joining the discussion? I would love to hear your perspective.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/feminism/4289285-Religion-initially-good-by-corrupted-by-patriarchy?msgid=108827173#108827173

Just to state, I am CoE but very supportive of all religions, especially the Abrahamic religions which I know a bit more about.

I do believe that religions are vilified for many reasons, some of them understandable (when war and suffering is justified) but that there is an essential good in them. There are others on the thread who disagree with me.

As a Muslim woman, I find aspect of my faith very difficult to comprehend, for example, inheritance rights, divorce procedures (women have to seek permission via a council for divorce yet men need to utter it 3 times (mine was over email); lack of protection following divorce (women have zero rights), rituals regarding periods (I could not pray or attend my dead daughter’s funeral as I was bleeding/seen as unclean; present in Judaism also). It’s so much easier for Muslim women to be open to abuse of power if operating under Shariah. Yes, our prophet (PBUH) was merciful towards women, however, some of the laws which have a massive material impact upon the lives of women are not fit for purpose in a modern society.

@Milomonster I applaud your honesty. I am not a Muslim but I grew up in a Muslim country and have read the Coran. Sorry, but to me it reads like a manual for male domination of women. I admit I have only read passages of the Bible ( Old Testament) and the feeling I got is that it is also written from a male perspective, for males.

Thank you for your reply. I think the Quran cannot be read literally to understand it (and I really think it’s impressive you took time to do so). I think all three Abrahamic books and laws do not favour women, however, Christianity has evolved with the times to give women their place eg in the clergy. I couldn’t have these discussions openly with other Muslims, I think. I’ve been through a lot personally to know I am pretty powerless as a woman as far as Shariah is concerned. In Pakistan, for example, men will have temporary marriages with prostitutes to make it “lawful” to have extra marital sex (or within marriage as they are allowed 4 wives). After sex, they can say divorce 3 times. Simple as that. It’s far easier for men to get away with abusive behaviour. Another example is that a woman who has been raped requires witnesses. Look how difficult rape trials are in the UK with all the process and laws in place. There is very little hope for women in Muslim countries. So yes, Islam in its current form is not protective of women. I would love to hear counter arguments to this.

No, I think your arguments are valid, of course it’s easy for me to say that because I am not Muslim. The Coran probably represented an improvement in the treatment of women at the time and place it was written, but of course things have evolved tremendously since then. The way some groups such as the Taliban use it to perpetuate a repressive phallocracy just sickens me. The difference between Islam and liberal Judaism is that the Coran is taken as a literal user’s manual to life by billions, whereas the bible is not. There is a coercive aspect I find most off putting, what with the fear of being accused of blasphemy or apostasy, which in some Muslim countries can amount to a death sentence.

@BatmansBat

Hi,

I have started a thread in feminism as I feel that religion often is blamed for suppressing women when in reality it often is men and patriarchal structures.

I believe (and I have found evidence) that Christianity was very pro women in the early days but that the church later took over and women were subjugated and partially written out.

I have also found suggestions and posted links that the prophet Mohammed actually helped women, that he was married to a business woman (Khadija) and that he helped women to gain the right to inherit.

I also have stated that the interpretation of the Koran varies between scholars and that more strict interpretations often are cultural. I am very open to being corrected.

I am being asked questions about child marriage which I cannot answer. I believe that this was a cultural thing at the time and that the age of Aisha at the time of marriage is debated by scholars. Would any Muslim posters be interested in joining the discussion? I would love to hear your perspective.

The Hadith, which are arguably, just as important as the Qu’ran were mostly written by the prophet’s youngest wife, Aisha. She was a widow, childless, but was politically active and single handedly created Islamic feminism through influencing politicians. This new Taliban are trying to appeal to Muslims around the world by creating a system similar to hers where women support but don’t lead politics — but it’s clear to anyone who has read the Qu’ran and Hadith that for much of her politically active life she was the leader and the politicians followers.

@Milomonster

As a Muslim woman, I find aspect of my faith very difficult to comprehend, for example, inheritance rights, divorce procedures (women have to seek permission via a council for divorce yet men need to utter it 3 times (mine was over email); lack of protection following divorce (women have zero rights), rituals regarding periods (I could not pray or attend my dead daughter’s funeral as I was bleeding/seen as unclean; present in Judaism also). It’s so much easier for Muslim women to be open to abuse of power if operating under Shariah. Yes, our prophet (PBUH) was merciful towards women, however, some of the laws which have a massive material impact upon the lives of women are not fit for purpose in a modern society.

I know of many muslim families where they don’t register a ‘non-family’ wedding legally until after the birth of a son, just so triple talak can be used and the woman shoved out of the house without any rights. Some councils have started to clock this & are refusing to recognise the divorces but this isn’t consistant and often there is little recourse for the woman in terms of finances. It’s worse in the UK. In India / Pakistan / Bangladesh often the threat of reputation or family involvement can keep people honest but nobody cares about that here.

@Ozanj that’s interesting, why is reputation not cared about so much in th U.K. ? I’m glad that councils know about this triple talak and are making efforts to help those women.

@Ozanj thank you for sharing. Sadly, until Islamic marriages are recognised in law, I doubt much will change. Jewish marriages have been automatically recognized legally for a very long time.
I thought India had banned triple talak.

@whataboutbob there is a very interesting documentary on blasphemy in Pakistan. It’s on Channel 4. If you are not in the UK, I will find it for you. It was truly shocking but very insightful.

@Ozanj when you councils, do you mean Islamic councils? I think national councils can’t enforce anything that is not law.

Thanks @Milomonster I have followed a couple of cases in Pakistan. It seems accusations of blasphemy are like witchcraft accusations of old in Europe / US and can be a convenient way of settling scores/ attacking someone you don’t like . I am in the U.K so thanks if you have the time to find the C4 documentary details.

Apologies - it was on BBC (part of Storyville series). I have just checked and, sadly, it’s no longer there. The name of it is The Accused: Damned or Devoted? It may be online elsewhere. Thoroughly recommended.

Sadly, accusations of blasphemy are becoming more common. The religious right holds an enormous amount of power. I mean Khan has courted them for votes. Awful.

Never mind about the documentary, thanks for looking. I agree about Khan, he’s a shameless populist. It might yet come back to bite him.

Many things mentioned above are part of culture. The sharia is based on Quran and Sunnah, but doesnt alway follow everything. In the case of rape needing witnesses, no, thats the rule someone need to follow if accusing someone else of adultery. Rape and adultery are two different things.
Also no right after divorce, not exact, for example if theres a child the ex wife has to be supported by the ex husband for the two years if breastfeeding, and so on. Things like temporary marriages to prostitutes, come on, nothing like that in Islam. Just because muslim do doesnt make it a part of Islam.

The fact that men use it as a loophole makes it part of Islam because marriage and divorce is so easy practically. It’s not right that men do it but based on technicality, its makes complete sense. Easy to marry, easy to divorce if you are a man. They can have sex and leave with their conscience intact.

Two years of breastfeeding - then what? She’s left to fend for herself? What if she has no education, income, family to turn to? I recall a very heartbreaking documentary about women in the UK who were given Islamic divorces without notice. They had no fall back when thrown out of the marital home. I’m afraid, Islam sanctions this by virtue of the lack of protection it affords women. It is not cultural but enshrined in its laws. The only thing a woman is entitled to is her haq mahr (a nominal amount in Pakistani culture). I wish I had more knowledge about this before I married and divorced.

Yes. My mistake - adultery. But look at the lack of parity there.

There's actually a lot more rights given to Muslim women than some women of other religions. I am Muslim but i wasn't raised Muslim. I chose to be Muslim. Islam gives me inheritance rights which I didn't have before. Also women in Islam are encouraged to study and undertake continuous education and gain knowledge (might not be the case culturally) but in Islam its our right. We are also encouraged to work if we wish and any money we earn is ours to keep, our husbands' don't have rights over our money but we do have rights over theirs as they are seen as the providers of the family. There's a phrase which I see used a lot in our generation of marriage which is from the female perspective, "what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine". We as women are actually so protected in terms of the actual religion, but culture sometimes strips us of these protections.

Also with regards to the written word of the Qu'ran, its very important to take into account the context of which it was revealed. The Qu'ran was revealed in stages and verses were revealed as they were needed in the context of which they were needed. You can not always take it literally the context gives a more specific meaning, this is why we have scholars who spend their lives studying the Qu'ran and Hadith so it is not used in a negative way or used in a way that justifies misactions.

A lot of the problems that people have with this religion is actually based on culture and not the religion itself. As a pp said before just because a Muslim does something does not make it part of their religion. We are flawed as humans and we will not be perfect in the way we follow religion.

@mummykauli7 in which country / religion were your inheritance rights worse than they are under sharia law, where a woman inherits 1/2 of a male’s portion?
I can only go by what is written in the Corian, I am not a scholar but when the text states ( something along the lines of) “go to your wive(s) as to a ploughed field,” “ if she is obedient treat her fairly but if not advise her, then forsake her in bed and finally strike her” well, it’s not exactly a feminist tract. It is written by men as a user’s guide to women, for men. And is used as justification for the subordination of women by millions of men around the world.

I agree cultural practices distort people’s practice and opinions on Islam. This is an argument I hear time and again in defense of the inequality towards women. However, the fact remains that women do not have the protection afforded to them under the laws of this country. I understand the the context in which those laws came about was entirely different. Why should a woman beg to a shariah council for a divorce (which men can drag their heels over for years) yet a man can grant a woman a divorce in seconds? So, whilst Islam is merciful towards women in some ways, from my own experience, it is a brutal and humiliating system to be under when things go wrong.
I’ll never forget the day I visited the mosque the day my daughter was going to buried, and I was told not to sit on the carpet where people prayed because I was unclean. Those words will never leave me. Or that I shouldn’t attend her funeral because we shouldn’t cry - my tears would wear the soul of dead down. Or how we shouldn’t touch the body of a dead person. I couldn’t hold my dead child and hug her. I watched as others washed her before she was buried. I couldn’t even do that for her. I didn’t attend her funeral in the end. That’s a very heavy burden I carry but I had no strength to think rationally. I just wanted to right by God. People become so bogged down in procedure and law that they lose all sense of humanity.

@mummykauli7 I do not have the same inheritance rights as my brother despite being divorced. My understanding is that women were entitled to less because they had husbands who were their providers. But I think about the women across the world who lack the education and resources to stand up on their own two feet.

Women who do not sleep with their husbands are taken out of the fold of Islam. They are no linger deemed Muslim. Yes, my ex told me this. Forget the fact that he was negligent towards his duties as a husband and father. It’s me that was wrong for not wishing to sleep with him.

From my understanding, with regards to inheritance. The split whereby a daughter gets half of a son is the minimum that she is entitled to not the maximum. Whatever amount the daughter receives is hers and hers alone she has no obligation to share it with others, husband included (although if she wishes to use it for her family needs that of course is her choice). The amount that a son gets, he gets with the responsibility of taking care of those to whom he is a guardian, so he should make sure his sisters/wife are taken care of. Again with regards to a daughters inheritance I understand it to be the minimum she receives, there is nothing to stop the parents splitting the inheritance equally between sons and daughters.

With regards to my personal inheritance before I came to Islam, going by what I have seen, the son inherits everything. Again, nothing to stop the daughter from being given an inheritance, which these days does happen, but in terms of who normally traditionally has the right of inheritance, its the sons.

@Milomonster I am really sorry to read about your devastating experiences. I hope you have had support and help with this since , whether informal or professional. It must have been so hard.
@mummykauli7 I’m not clear on which non Islamic country would have a system whereby girls are disinherited and sons get everything, but clearly nowhere in Europe or most other countries of European heritage I can think of.

@mummykauli7

There's actually a lot more rights given to Muslim women than some women of other religions. I am Muslim but i wasn't raised Muslim. I chose to be Muslim. Islam gives me inheritance rights which I didn't have before. Also women in Islam are encouraged to study and undertake continuous education and gain knowledge (might not be the case culturally) but in Islam its our right. We are also encouraged to work if we wish and any money we earn is ours to keep, our husbands' don't have rights over our money but we do have rights over theirs as they are seen as the providers of the family. There's a phrase which I see used a lot in our generation of marriage which is from the female perspective, "what's yours is mine and what's mine is mine". We as women are actually so protected in terms of the actual religion, but culture sometimes strips us of these protections.

Also with regards to the written word of the Qu'ran, its very important to take into account the context of which it was revealed. The Qu'ran was revealed in stages and verses were revealed as they were needed in the context of which they were needed. You can not always take it literally the context gives a more specific meaning, this is why we have scholars who spend their lives studying the Qu'ran and Hadith so it is not used in a negative way or used in a way that justifies misactions.

A lot of the problems that people have with this religion is actually based on culture and not the religion itself. As a pp said before just because a Muslim does something does not make it part of their religion. We are flawed as humans and we will not be perfect in the way we follow religion.

But why treat men and women differently at all? Even if you could argue that its beneficial to women, why have different rules in the first place?

@whataboutbob that’s very kind. Thank you.

Op, amina wadud's fb page (or even her books) would have info on the questions you are asking.

Or fatima mernissi.

I think in general that while religion can overlap with harmful practices and cultural practices that are sexist, religion can also be a source of strength for women and it's very hard to generalise.