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Original poster

church schools and their fascist admissions policy

194 replies

slinkstar · 26/09/2007 16:39

i am currently choosing a secondary school for my son, i have not bought him up with any religion, he knows i am pagan though.
the only good schools in the area are c of e or catholic schools, it seems like unless you can go private or convert to a christian religion you cannot get a good education for your kids.
after a conversation with one of the schools this afternoon i understand that they do have places for non christian children but you have to be a "world faith" and proof from your place of worship is necessary. world faiths are jew, muslim, sikh, hindu. thats it!
so there are NO non-denom places available at any church schools.

can anyone else see the complete fascism in this ??
i don't exactly want my kids bought up christian but i want a good education for them. it seems like they will be shoved in the local non denom school which according to league tables means theres a good 70% chance they will fail their gcses!
has anyone had this issue before.

do you think they would have to consider my son for a world faith school place if i had some pagan priest write a reference for me.

OP posts:
margoandjerry · 26/09/2007 22:17
Grin
margoandjerry · 26/09/2007 22:18

What I love about faith schools is the whole "we love other faiths" thing...

I mean, yep. A belief in god(s) has certainly been enough to bring Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus together over the years....

hester · 26/09/2007 22:29

There are five secondary schools in my borough. Four of them are Catholic. The remaining one has a terrible reputation for violence and disorder. My taxes support all five.

Please don't tell me this is fair because, after all, I can always choose to send my child to the local sink school (and she'll probably still pass her exams, though whether she'll be safe and happy is something else entirely). Please don't tell me that four fifths of local parents are practising Catholics. Please don't tell me that religion isn't being used by middle class parents to game an unfair system, and by schools to pursue a selective agenda.

UnquietDad · 27/09/2007 09:16

It's an absolute disgrace. And people play the game, are smug about it and damn well know it. I wonder whether they'd keep the smug smiles on their faces if they were told they had to CARRY ON going to church for 12 years or their child lost the school place.

How about it, faith schools?...I detest them but if they're going to do it they may as well do it properly...

Mercy · 27/09/2007 09:33

Agree with you on that UD.

Same goes for getting married in a church imo, or being baptised etc.

Niecie · 27/09/2007 10:33

Daphne - the original post didn't say anything about the poster being forced to outside the catchment area to get a secular school. She was complaining that her dc couldn't go to the best school in the area because it was a faith school. There are other schools. My 'obtuse' and misquoted point merely says that in a situation like this why would you want to send your child to this school if you don't have a faith and haven't bought into what makes it a good school.

It is a different kettle of fish if you have only one school in an area - not the op. I would argue that in such a circumstance the local children should be allowed in their catchment school but after that non-catchment children could be selected on the basis of faith. I am sorry if it doesn't happen that way for some people. That is unfair but as I said in reply to UQD post, I bet those parents who are complaining that they can't go to their local faith school when it is the only one in the area, would have no qualms about going to another catchment if it was an awful school, regardless of it being faith or not.

I would have thought situations like this are limited to villages and sparsely populated areas. I live in a town, not particularly built up, not particularly large and there are at least 8 primary schools within 1 mile of here, one of which is CofE. I don't see why the can't select on the basis of faith.

We have 4 secondary school within 3 miles, one of which is Catholic. Again, why can't they select on the basis of faith when there is lots of choice?

UnquietDad · 27/09/2007 10:38

If parents do that, it is the fault of an imperfect system. Take faith out of the system and it isn't an issue. People should just send children to their local catchment school, and it should be secular.

kerala · 27/09/2007 11:07

Totally agree with all UQD has said - put so well.

Brings to mind the Dawkins view questioning the labelling of children as religious so early on, before they have had the opportunity to learn about the world and make their own decisions. We dont label young children as "communist" or "vegetarian" children but do catholic or muslim.

bossykate · 27/09/2007 11:19

uqd, you know very well that faith schools are merely one distortion in a dysfunctional system. "just send children to their local catchment school" - this would only serve to increase house prices around certain schools and even more families would be priced out - you can't compel people not to move for a "better" school. at least going to church is free

Niecie · 27/09/2007 11:27

kerala,

We all label our children all the time for all sorts of things. You can't just single out faith.

Niecie · 27/09/2007 11:29

UQD,- just as a matter of interest are you advocating the the abolition of grammar and specialist schools?

UnquietDad · 27/09/2007 11:37

The grammar/specialist school thing is a totally separate argument, and I don't want to sidetrack into that here.

Given that we already have an imperfect system, why make it even more unfair with faith schools?

Someone please answer my "American billionaire" question below. (Wed 26-Sep-07 21:43:27)

Niecie · 27/09/2007 11:52

It is slightly off the beaten track but if you want to abolish faith schools because they are unfair and people can't go to their catchment school then I was just wondering if you were going to extend that to all other sources of 'unfairness' and abolish grammar and specialist schools too which can also stop a child getting into their local school. Or is it a case simply that you don't have a faith so faith schools are top of the list?

Don't answer if you don't want to as it will lead to us going away from the original post. Just making the point that life isn't fair and that we can't just get rid of anything we personally don't agree with because there will always be something else making the system imprefect.

I'll have a go at your post if you like but I have to go and pick DS from nursery first..

kerala · 27/09/2007 12:04

Niecie - but I dont want to be forced to label my children just so they can go to the local state funded school. Should be my choice to do that not the states.

UnquietDad · 27/09/2007 12:17

"Life isn't fair", but why make it more unfair?

It just seems ridiculous to separate pupils out according to something whose existence is, at best, debatable. Doesn't seem that this can, in any way, lead to harmony. And in the state system, it is outrageous.

It would be bad enough if it were done according to belief in/ adherence to things whose existence can be proven - such as vegetarianism, the Labour Party, Manchester United or Star Trek.

(The idea of teaching people separately according to academic/vocational ability is a big and controversial one, but it is totally separate from the faith debate for this very reason.)

I shall say it again - if any other state provision, paid for by us all - bin collection, hospitals, road-mending - were to discriminate on grounds of "faith", people would quite rightly be up in arms. And if education were to discriminate in any other arbitrary way (football team, diet, political affiliation), that would be unacceptable too.

Why's "faith" different? Why does it get special treatment? Why do we have to walk on eggshells around people of "faith" as if they are some special case?

CountessDracula · 27/09/2007 12:51

We don't
Well I don't

Just becasue they experience some mass hallucination and believe in fairy tales doesn't make me treat them any differently (though maybe the men in white coats should be called...)

UnquietDad · 27/09/2007 13:02

But it gets special treatment in the context of the education system.

CountessDracula · 27/09/2007 13:24

Quite
If we don't treat them differently in any other way why should they get special treatment with their schools

margoandjerry · 27/09/2007 13:43

And as the faith school people keep missing, in my area ALL THE LOCAL SCHOOLS ARE FAITH SCHOOLS.

So we are excluded from all our local schools. This is not just about wanting to get into a good school. It's about wanting to get into a school that's in my area.

Niecie · 27/09/2007 14:55

I did say that if it was the only school in the immediate area, faith schools should allow children in the catchment area in. That is a problem with your LEA. Here the faith school catchments overlap with the secular school catchments so it isn't the issue. It also isn't the issue in the OP.

EmsMum · 27/09/2007 14:59

If its the only school in the area it really really really shouldnt be a faith school.

Really.

donnie · 27/09/2007 15:00

why don't you start your own pagan school then slinkstar?

EmsMum · 27/09/2007 15:02

ooh yes and I can start an atheist one

because we don't believe in segregation and indoctrination of children into ANY belief system maybe?

UnquietDad · 27/09/2007 15:04

But why should she?
She pays her taxes so is entitled to have a school she can send her children to.

Be realistic, how long does it take to get permission for a new school and to "start" one?? John O'Farrell wrote an article about the process of doing so in Lewisham a while back - it took a good while.

I don't get all this business of having X schools and Y schools and Z schools based on which variety of spirit being and sky-daddy you happen to worship. It. Is. Divisive.

Mercy · 27/09/2007 15:07

margoandjerry - where do you live?
(approximately)

How far away is the nearest non-faith school?