church schools and their fascist admissions policy

[slinkstar]

i am currently choosing a secondary school for my son, i have not bought him up with any religion, he knows i am pagan though.
the only good schools in the area are c of e or catholic schools, it seems like unless you can go private or convert to a christian religion you cannot get a good education for your kids.
after a conversation with one of the schools this afternoon i understand that they do have places for non christian children but you have to be a "world faith" and proof from your place of worship is necessary. world faiths are jew, muslim, sikh, hindu. thats it!
so there are NO non-denom places available at any church schools.

can anyone else see the complete fascism in this ??
i don't exactly want my kids bought up christian but i want a good education for them. it seems like they will be shoved in the local non denom school which according to league tables means theres a good 70% chance they will fail their gcses!
has anyone had this issue before.

do you think they would have to consider my son for a world faith school place if i had some pagan priest write a reference for me.

It does annoy me a bit to hear people saying Faith schools (mainly CofE) should be abolished or not state funded. Almost all the schools that are currently CofE schools were founded in the late C19th or early C20th century by the Church, with Church money and the donations of local Christians, to provide education for all the local people (who were of course mostly at least broadly Christian at that time).The church campaigned for decades for universal free education, and when teh govt eventually took it on, the church gave the schools -free- to the state. So the Church has had a big investment in them and doesn't deserve to be treated like the bad guy in all this.
Also, MOST CofE schools do not discriminate in their entrance policy on a faith basis. Where they do, it is normally because there are lots of schools locally so plenty of other places for other children to go, and lots of people wanting a Christian education specifically. If those schools then do well, they are blamed for 'cherrypicking' but I have seen the statistics and most Cof E schools have an identical (or often even 'worse') social and economic mix of kids as the surrounding schools. It may just be that the faith ethos helps the education...in which case the argument would be for more faith schools, not less.

I don't especially find them fascist and I don't disagree with their very existence, but I do disagree with their being part of the state system.

All state schools should be open to all pupils in the catchment (and beyond if there is room).

mosschops, it's not rude. This is taxpayer's money being used to provide a form of education which we are not entitled to receive.

Also the idea that ordinary children like my daughter don't subscribe to the ethos of the school because they are not brought up in a religious household makes me cringe. My daughter will be brought up to be polite, respectful, thoughtful, kind, etc. What's so different about that?

TBH, I think it is a nonsense policy. Christian schools have to let Jewish and Muslim children in and both sets would have fundamentally different sets of beliefs about the nature of Christ. But by accepting different faiths they get a tick under "multiculturalism". My daughter, who doesn't have an opinion about Christ but in all other respects is just the same as anyone else's child, does not get the same treatment.

funding of "specialist" schools allowed to selct on the basis of that specialism should be capped at the number of people in any area actively pursuing that religion (or requiring that specialsim)

agree, blu, that secular schools should be an option and shoudl be allowed

They select by the backdoor? Sorry, but bollocks. By back door, do you mean church? ,Yeah it's a really sneaky thing isn't it? Celebrate your faith, go to chuch and get a place at a faith- inspired school. How many parents when saying a school isn't good enough are willing to spend time on an evening not paying for extra educatyion or teaching children themselves but reading with them, going over their homework, looking at subjects, talking about what was learnt at school? Yes, i know there are work commitmnents but theer is still this option here.

Who pays for the upkeep of state faith schools?

I only ask because a point put forward in their favour is often that the Church owns the land and/or the building.

But does the church pay to have the leaky roof mended, or is that the local authority (i.e the taxpayer)? And every expense that keeps the school going - from the board markers to the head's salaray and everything in between. Where does that money come from?

I dont think that anyone thinks that 'non-believers' shouldnt benefit.
My dd went to catholic primary and is now in catholic secondary.
The school has a strict entrance policy that is graded first its open to all catholic students from feeder primarys' then catholic students from non-feeder etc etc, until you get to non-faith applications. The school looks at these but there is usually no room after the feeder primary children for anyone else ...even other catholic children.

So why do you think you should be given preference over other catholic children when you dont share the faith?

IMHO this is right and that all catholic children should be given the opportunity to attend their faith school and then any other applications after that.

The 'ethos' is not 'kind, helpuful etc' - it is CHRISTIAN! And the other faiths yes do have a very different view of Jesus, but a similar worldview in that they believe in one God, with all that implies in terms of human value, the value of creation (and why), equality and respect etc - you may believe in all these things but probably not for the same reason. In fact, it might be because you have actually been brought up in a Christian culture where such things are part of the framework, but they are not part of the cultural and philosophical framework of all kinds of paganism (some but not all).

I completely agree that the Church schools were founded as philanthropic ventures - and magnificent ones at that.

Now, I think that the state should buy the land and buiildings form the church schools - or that the church schools should go private or else agree to have an open admission policy the same as the community school criteria. I think the non-religious foundation schools should do the same. There is one close to me which allows priority to children who have taken a nursery place. this of course favours children from stable non-transient families, and who have at least one sahp (v v few working parents can take up a state nursery place du to it being 2hrs and 10 mons!)...so highly socially selective compared to the community school admissions.

hermione - I can only speak for our area but local CofE and Catholic schools ALL select on basis of religion and require a letter from priest. My (practising catholic) CM was told her youngest boy could not go to the catholic primary (despite being in teh nursery and his brother in the primary) becasue she only went to mass once a fortnight. She had four children, CM'd one day at weekend as well as in week and her DH worked shifts every other weekend.

I went to a Cof E primary - was not selective purely on catchment area. Have no problem with Cof E schools only selection.

unquietdad, we've just had a letter from our (catholic) school explaining about our responsibilities to pay towards teh upkeep of the school. including leaking roofs.

its not that i don't want the christian ethos i do not mind it at all, i am not christian though but there are places set out for world faiths but no places for non denom, i would not attempt to take a place of a christian. i just think the non christian places available should be available to all.

im not rushing to baptism meetings to attempt to get child baptised so can get into school- faking going to church etc etc!!!

And i don't agree with the bright child will do well thing at all, im sure a bright child would do well, but my child is not particularly bright but if he was at a good school and they taught him well he may become bright and do well. but bad schools are not just bad because all the thickos go there- there bad because the school cannot teach them properly.

Udad -
IME catholic parents pay a lot more (including a monthly dd donation) to the upkeep of their schools than non-faith schools.
At least thats whats been expected at primary and now at secondary in this area

Church is for religion, school is for education - why should the state pay to uphold religious practice?

bundle - yes, but that's not the bulk of the upkeep, is it? They welcome contributions, but the Local Authority pays for most of it - don't they?

And I can spell SALARY, honest.

yes they do unquietdad, and that local authority is funded by me too

And my local authority is also funded by me, and all the other atheists. Which rather makes that irrelevant!

I don't think religious discrimination of any kind is acceptable tbh, just like any other sort of discrimination or prejudice.
I think discriminating against a child onthe basis of his or her parent's religion makes no sense whatsover from any educational, legal or moral standpoint.
I think that the fact that the state funds schools with a discrimnatory policy 100% stinks to high heaven.
I also read in the newspaper at the weekend that someone trying o set up an atheist/rationalist school has been denied funding
but if you think that is fascism I think you need to take a little remedial history lesson

well yes, but my atheist husband is happy to fund it too.. and i'm happy to fund the other schools in my area

We don't need atheist/rationalist schools, though. That just perpetuates divisiveness. We just want schools.

bundle do you know what percentage of capital funding comes from the church?

as a minor aside, I have always wondered why Christian and Muslim failth school don't activly encourge the children of non believers to get a place.

there is a biblical recomendadtion for Christians, 'Suffer little children to come unto Me'

And Muslims consider that at birth all are Muslim, which is why they talk about reverts rather than converts.

You'd think that the children on non believers would get precidence in that case....

harpsi, i can't remember but can look it up tonight

agree bundle we had to pay for toilet refurb and new external security doors at primary.

slink - if your argument is just that the non-denom places should be open to all then I agree wholeheartedly, but i dont believe children of the faith should be turned away in favour of the non-faith children (but i dont think thats what you implied anyway)

lol that people think having faith is a 'back-door' entrance ffs