Can any Christians (or Muslims or Jews) answer a question?

[KenDodd]

For background I'm white British culturally Christian I suppose. Celebrity Christmas and Easter etc but without that much of the religious input. Don't believe in God.

I remember having a conversation with a vicar some years back about christianity and heaven. Basically the vicar said that access to heaven didn't depend on a person leading a good life, it depends on worshiping God and welcoming God into your life and that living by God rules would make you a good person. So, as an extreme example, Hitler could in the last days of his life truly repent and ask God's forgiveness and would be welcomed into heaven, whereas, for example, an atheist doctor could devote their whole life providing medical care for the poorest, most marginalised people in the world for very little personal gain and would be condemned to the fires of hell?

I really struggled to understand this. Perhaps posters could expand upon it for me? Maybe it's not for me to understand, it's just to accept? I believe (perhaps wrongly?) the same view is true of Islam and Judaism?

Thanks

I think Christianity says that you can truly repent your sins and you’ll get into heaven. After you repent you sins you should live a good life, obeying Gods rules. Repenting when you make a mistake.

It’s likely the religious person you spoke to was trying to give you (or others you know) hope that even if you had done bad things in the past, if you truly repent (as in within your heart not just saying the words and not meaning them) then you can get into heaven.

It’s not a case of repenting your sins and carrying on doing them again repeatedly with no effort to change. That’s the welcoming God in side of things, by trying to be a better person and praying for help to do so, while trying to follow the rules.

Hitler was an evil bastard through and through and would never be capable of repenting his sins as he would have happily carried on doing them. So he won’t be on the welcoming committee at the pearly gates!

I get that bit about forgiveness though, that bit makes sense to me. The bit I don't get is about the good person, the doctor in my example, going to hell. That's what a don't understand.

Thanks for answering btw. :)

Ex Christian here

The way I always understood it is that
No human is perfect and no one can lead a good enough life to to be able to enter the kingdom of heaven.

So Jesus was sent as a sacrifice for our sins so that as long as we accept him as our lord and saviour we can get to heaven. You then try your best to live according to God’s rules but god knows we will continue to make mistakes.

OP - why do you think heaven and hell exist but don't believe in god? Can't you just tell yourself they're all fictitious and not worry about it?

The bit I don't get is about the good person, the doctor in my example, going to hell.
Did the priest actually say that a good person would go to hell just believe they don't believe in God?

By being a good person, helping others etc then that atheist IS living by gods law.

And in Christianity no one is beyond redemption, even Hitler...providing they truly repent (not just say words but truly, in their heart and soul).

Do be aware that not all Christians share that particular minister's beliefs. Personally, I believe that Hell, if it exists, is empty.

Everyone has sinned, even Mother Theresa, and the good atheist doctor you mention. Everyone needs that stain to be removed. I don't believe that repentance has to be made while your heart is still beating or it doesn't count (which some Christians do believe). I am not 100% sure whether there is a heaven, but if there is then I believe that there would be a process after death whereby we can repent and be cleansed of those sins - and that process would be painful because a true understanding of the depth of your own sin will always be a painful thing to experience, so obviously that will be many times more painful (and presumably long-lasting) for Hitler than it would be for Dr Good-Atheist. And presumably would be briefer and more tolerable for those who have truly repented and mended their ways in this life. However, at the end of it those sins are gone. It is possible that once the process is over there is nothing left, but whatever is left would be clean and whole and perfect.

The point of being a Christian is not to avoid Hell, it is to build the kingdom of God here on earth now. Of course that is not a task that can ever be completed, but the process of striving towards it has real value and leads to a greater and deeper joy than can be experienced in the absence of faith.

There are a great many people who claim Christianity but who don't show forth the love of God in their lives and those people can make it very difficult for those who aren't Christian to understand. Someone very dear to me was awfully, horribly hurt when she was in her 20s, by people who called themselves Christian. She survived those experiences, and went on to live the next 70 years of her life not particularly any more or less sinful than anyone else, and deeply caring for others in many ways, but with a deep bitterness and revulsion towards anything to do with the Church or Christianity. It was impossible for the depth of her wounds to be healed in this life sufficiently for her to hear the Good News of Christ without it triggering that awful pain for her. But nothing is impossible for God and I am 100% confident that she was able to be healed and redeemed after her death.

Did the priest actually say that a good person would go to hell just believe they don't believe in God?

I can't remember exactly the words he used but, yes, that was pretty much right, the good person goes to hell, it was years ago. The point was there is no route to heaven without accepting God regardless of what kind of life you've led.

The way these people think is that it's as if heaven has a small narrow door to get in, and that door is accepting Christ. So it's not that you're "not allowed" through without the password, it's that the belief is the way through. Complaining about this would be like complaining that you can't get in to your house without going in through the door, not that you haven't been given a key.

It doesn't seem to occur to anyone that limiting the acceptance to before you're actually dead is a bit unfair.

(It has occurred to lots of people that it's a bit mean to exclude people who haven't heard the gospel - that's what the doctrines of Limbo and the Harrowing of Hell were attempts to get round.)

Of course, there's always the fact that the bible isn't entirely consistent on this point - the parable of the sheep and the goats, for instance, is All About the Works, and Jesus says "not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven".

There have been various groups at various times who reject the idea of having to accept doctrine to benefit from redemption. They are normally described as heretics...

I've come to the conclusion that the Incarnation itself is the act that reconciles humanity to god, and that Jesus didn't die "for our sins", he died in order to overcome death, on behalf of everyone. This is definitely heretical (ie cherrypicking the Wrong Bits) but hey, I'm CofE.

I remember ranting to our (quite progressive) vicar about a line in one of the stirring hymns our congregation enjoys: "the vilest offender who truly believes, that moment from Jesus a pardon receives" because it implies that those who have such doubts don't get a pardon. She was horrified, because she'd never thought of it that way. (Kind of feel bad about spoiling the jolly hymn for her now ) She's not alone: many people don't even consider what happens to those who don't believe in a divine. As far as they're concerned you have Rejected God, so it's not God's fault that you won't go through the door.

Not sure Jesus agreed with that minister. The Gospel Of Matthew v31-46 suggest to me that there might be quite a lot of people in heaven who never considered themselves Christian.

Do you mean this?

“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’ “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’ “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’ “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

that's the passage I meant yes. it suggests to me that loving your neighbour as yourself is something that is counted as righteousness even if the person doesn't say or believe the right things. But I'm not one to claim biblical inerrancy and who knows whether Jesus actually said it exactly like that. I think official doctrine is that faith without good deeds is insufficient and good deeds without faith are insufficient but you'll find a huge variety of opinions on the matter among believers and bible scholars. the CofE is pretty relaxed about doctrine and tends not to insist.

I’m a member of the church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and that’s not what we believe. Hitler will not be in heaven.

From the Jewish perspective, we don't place so much emphasis on an afterlife or heaven. We try to live a good life on Earth, and say sorry for anything bad we've done every year on Yom Kippur, the day of atonement.

God is good, he's not going to send a good person to hell. Jesus didn't die so that good atheist doctors end up in hell.

That's my simple belief, I put less weight on particular sentences and passages that may or may not be exactly as someone said them 2,000 years ago and that have been 'interpreted' by however many people over the years.

It starts with the view that everyone is a sinner. Jesus talked a lot about hypocrisy and how people would make a show of doing good deeds but in their hearts they were still jealous and hateful and treated people poorly etc.
If everyone sins then no one can say they are better than anyone else. The point is-it took Jesus who was blameless to carry the weight of our sins do we could be reconciled with God. Salvation is therefore an act of mercy from God rather than due to our “hard work”.

With regard to Hitler etc people often think it’s a case of him just saying the word sorry and that’s it. No. Being sorry and truly repenting from your heart means recognising all the harm and hurt you have caused and turning away from your past behaviour. It’s a literal transformation not the single word of sorry. Now, I don’t know what went on in hitlers mind but he killed his dog, his girlfriend and then himself. Doesn’t sound to me like the actions of someone who had repented in their heart and was willing to face the consequences of what they had done because that’s part of repentance.

Obviously it gets tricky if you say anyone can get in as then no one would want to go there. But if it requires you to guess the right steps before you die then a good proportion of decent people will not get in.

So you'll have a murderer as a neighbour but not his victim who died too young to have had time to repent. (and who was under the impression that Ganesha, Brahma etc were real anyway)

There really is no way to make it right. People have tried for a long time, but it simply doesn't work. All any believer can do is to try and avoid thinking about it.

I am a Christian and believe in universal salvation. It's controversial, I know. I do have theological backing but it was something I looked into after being inspired by some beautiful imagery in Revelation:
Then I saw ‘a new heaven and a new earth,’ for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, ‘Look! God’s dwelling-place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God.

I also think that it's worth noting that within Christianity there are many atonement theories. www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2018/29-march/features/features/is-there-one-doctrine-of-the-atonement-ransom-substitute-scapegoat-god

I'm sorry to say that I am a complete atheist having been baptised and confirmed as a Christian.
However in my admittedly limited knowledge of religious faith, it seems to me that Judeism is certainly the purest form of religion, and they do seem to have it just about right.

I don't think the good doctor will die and find himself suddenly stood at the pearly gates knocking to get in thinking 'shit! I was wrong!'
He doesn't believe so therefore his soul won't be expecting of that.
Isn't the kingdom of heaven there for those who choose it?
It won't be there for those who don't.

@LastTrainEast: Obviously it gets tricky if you say anyone can get in as then no one would want to go there

Seriously?

It's not a bloody social club!

(oh great, now I'm getting an image of Justin Welby as Lady Jersey dishing out vouchers and bohea...)

How can you possibly be happy in heaven knowing that other people (including people you knew and loved) are being tormented by the very same person who's invited you in?

also reminded of a joke about someone being shown round heaven and seeing all the different groups. They creep past a particular room and St Peter says "shh, that's the [CU/JWs/insert group of choice], they think they're the only ones here"

From what you've said @KenDodd the minister you spoke to sounds like they are from the Protestant tradition. In this strand of Christianity salvation depends on belief in Jesus. In some strands it becomes very exclusive so it has be be one version of the sinners prayer plus membership of their sect. I remember having a very intense discussion with some ultra Protestants who had decided I wasn't a proper Christian because I wasn't one of them but I was quoting Romans 10 to their request to say who Jesus is. To paraphrase - if you can say that Jesus is Lord and he rose from the dead you are saved. This was not good enough for them.

Christianity is a very broad church. As someone else has said there are many theologies of the atonement ie why what happened on the cross saves humankind. What you find when you study the atonement is that you learn a lot about the culture of the day as this is always reflected in the theories.

It is not straightforward but my belief is that hell if it exists is empty. There is either heaven which is where God is or nothingness. I've been heavily influenced by CS Lewis who imagines what heaven might be like in a number of his books.

Me too, mostlydrinkstea. I think hell as it is preached in these cases is a medieval construct developed over years to exercise power over the masses and has very little backing (far more case for condtionalism and for universalism though much more shaky ground for the latter imo). So the language used of 'getting in' is unhelpful for a start. God is about relationship and invites people into relationship with him. People have that choice and God will not force it, now or after death, because that would invade free will. But how that choice is made may not necessarily be as cut and dried as that priest assumed; the Bible is so full of pictures of God as compassionate and longing for his children to come home, and talks about how he is just and not willing for any to perish (or go into nothingness rather than eternal torment which is a faulty translation). It talks about people who were righteous pre Jesus and that credited to them and so I believe God to be so much bigger and wider than I know, and so completely just in his invitation to the atheist doctor as much to the 'vilest offender.'

With that I love that God is a God of grace and not a God of wrath and unforgiveness. Grace is the most beautiful thing. It's a parent who loves their wayward child and welcomes them home even when they've thoroughly messed up. It's a love that goes beyond boundaries and beyond what we think we know about justice and fairness; it's wider and stronger than that. I love that people in the most hideous of situations have been utterly transformed by grace - it's about second chances.

So yes I believe there is room for both the criminal who repents and the good atheist if that good atheist chooses to be in relationship with God. God cannot force that and will not. I think it's getting away from the idea of the heaven/hell dichotomy as the good place/bad place, and looking to scripture for what heaven means which is depicted in beautiful poetry as a renewed heavens and earth, a place where there will be no more mourning, tears or death, a place where we will dwell with God in eternity in perfect relationship. And a place where justice is done, a deeper justice than we can ever imagine which takes into account every thought and every wish and most of all a response to an invitation to know God through Jesus.