Can any Christians (or Muslims or Jews) answer a question?

[KenDodd]

For background I'm white British culturally Christian I suppose. Celebrity Christmas and Easter etc but without that much of the religious input. Don't believe in God.

I remember having a conversation with a vicar some years back about christianity and heaven. Basically the vicar said that access to heaven didn't depend on a person leading a good life, it depends on worshiping God and welcoming God into your life and that living by God rules would make you a good person. So, as an extreme example, Hitler could in the last days of his life truly repent and ask God's forgiveness and would be welcomed into heaven, whereas, for example, an atheist doctor could devote their whole life providing medical care for the poorest, most marginalised people in the world for very little personal gain and would be condemned to the fires of hell?

I really struggled to understand this. Perhaps posters could expand upon it for me? Maybe it's not for me to understand, it's just to accept? I believe (perhaps wrongly?) the same view is true of Islam and Judaism?

Thanks

I asked the vicar at work (when I worked for the CofE) if cavemen went to heaven. I was assured that if they lived a good life they would. I had been pondering this since I was a child.

I also asked what was the purpose of moths but he didn’t know.

I'm a Christian. I was always taught that hell isn't a place it's a state. Hell means 'permanently separated from God'. That's why the only unforgiveable sin is rejection of Him. If you accept Jesus as Lord then you're in. But the bible tells us that on judgment day we will all see him face to face, not as a carpenter from Nazareth but as the Son of God in all his glory and it's at that point where the final heaven/hell decision is made. So only those who stand before the throne with the full magnificence of God revealed and still reject him end up in 'hell'.

It worth pointing out that from a Christian perspective good deeds have no bearing on entrance to heaven. You can't earn yourself a spot. Jesus has already bought your place and gives it freely as a gift to those who accept Him into their lives.

Atheist here. Not read any religious texts in great depth but for OP: followers of Judaism do not have heaven. A good person to explain the OT is @ElishabenAbuya on Twitter. He's a secular Jew. Muslims do have heaven.

An atheist is someone who doesn't believe in God, Jesus, or Allah, or Shivah, or Buddha's teachings, Santa Claus, the occult, or even the tooth fairy. They do not believe in heaven. They do not choose to have a relationship with God or Jesus because they believe that they do not exist, (or Jesus may have, but he supposedly died 2000+ years ago) or reject the religious texts teachings, or prefer to explain their world using science or philosophy. I will die, and my body will be cremated, and that's it. No heaven.

It worth pointing out that from a Christian perspective good deeds have no bearing on entrance to heaven. You can't earn yourself a spot. Jesus has already bought your place and gives it freely as a gift to those who accept Him into their lives.

And there we have it. Like an awful life, a serial killer, sincerely accept Jesus into your life on your deathbed, and you're in. But live a great life, but don't accept Jesus, and you're out.

And there we have it. Like an awful life, a serial killer, sincerely accept Jesus into your life on your deathbed, and you're in. But live a great life, but don't accept Jesus, and you're out.

Why would being permanently out of his presence be an issue if you don't accept him and want to be with him? As I said in the first part of my post heaven and hell aren't places, they're states. Do you want to eternity in communion with God or do you want to spend eternity separated from God? Nobody is forced into either state, everyone has freewill to choose.

merryhouse Your last paragraph nailed it.

"How can you possibly be happy in heaven knowing that other people (including people you knew and loved) are being tormented by the very same person who's invited you in?"

There's just no answer to that is there. There can't be. Though someone did try once with "but you will be happy as you'll have no choice" which I thought quite a scary claim.

*Do you want to spend eternity in communion - that should say.

The more I understand about any decisions or choices that people make, the more complex the reasons for those decisions or choices become.

That is why God, through the Bible commands us not to judge others.
Or as Gandalf says, 'For even the very wise cannot see all ends.'

If God is omniscient, God alone knows the real reasons behind our choices and I can only hope God is kinder than some Christians think.

I think the issue is with what you perceive heaven/hell to be.

For a Christian the aim is always to be in the presence of God, so to be separated from God would be hell. Presumably to someone who does not believe in God, or wish to be in His presence, what a Christian sees as hell would be no problem, maybe even a good thing. So it would be a choice: eternity in God's presence, or eternity without God. And if you chose God's presence then, if you believe in Jesus and repent of your failures to put Him first in your life, then you're admitted to God's presence, not through your efforts, but through His grace.

I don't know how it works for Jews or Muslims. Perhaps someone else can explain.

"How can you possibly be happy in heaven knowing that other people (including people you knew and loved) are being tormented by the very same person who's invited you in?"

I understand why that's an impossible question and completely agree as a Christian. But that may be because I simply do not believe that eternal torment is a biblical position and a good in depth hermeneutic of not the NT and OT position on Hades/Sheol/Gehenna uncovers the truth that eternal torment was not a favoured position, and has been based very much on Augustine's adoption of Stoic and Platonian constructs of the immortal soul rather than on Jesus' statements about Gehenna, a place of destruction. So for me the question is moot - there will be no undying torment I have to be worrying about. The doctrine of hell as a medieval construct makes a mockery of everything from God as a God of compassion and mercy through to the atonement theory of penal substitution where Jesus took the punishment for sin which was death, not ECT.

It's not something much discussed but this position is widely held among many respected Christian scholars and leaders nowadays.

I come back to this: God is not willing that any should perish and offers the opportunity to be in relationship with him, but does not force it. And that opportunity is given to those who have severely messed up as much as those who've lived a good life - even good people mess up sometimes and fall short of God's glory, but God has made a way for complete reconciliation despite that, and that's where grace and mercy come flooding in.

I am a Christian and I believe that we would be judged by our kindness, empathy and humanity towards all.
Regret is a consequence of poor choices and regret is usually for personal consequences rather than the impact upon others.

I once had a discussion with Rev Richard Coles. I'm Jewish. I said deeds were more important than belief. He said belief was more important than anything else.

Jews are expected to believe in God, but not instructed to. Though we are instructed not to bow down to or follow any other god.

As PPs have said, heaven isn't a big deal in Judaism (hell even less so - it's barely a Jewish concept). We earn our reward in this life, for ourselves, our community, our descendants. Similarly any punishment. By our deeds we are remembered.

I am a Christian and I believe that we would be judged by our kindness, empathy and humanity towards all.

But that'n not what Christianity teaches. If you believe that, you aren't a Christian at all. Because, as was correctly stated above:

It worth pointing out that from a Christian perspective good deeds have no bearing on entrance to heaven. You can't earn yourself a spot. Jesus has already bought your place and gives it freely as a gift to those who accept Him into their lives.

With respect, Christianity is a broad church! E.g. Unitarians wouldn't agree with your comments there. Although I'm aware that many (all?!) other strands of Christianity don't actually consider them to be Christians at all. FWIW I'm a Muslim and also consider myself a Unitarian (not sure if you know anything about Unitarianism but if you look into it you will find that the two are not mutually exclusive). AFAIK the Quran is the only major religious text that specifically mentions followers of other faiths entering heaven alongside followers of the faith it professes. The Quran also very frequently discusses good deeds and links them to entering heaven.

Regarding an atheist that does good deeds, 'conventional' Islamic theology would say they aren't going to heaven. Practically many of us don't believe that and there are reformist movements in this vein. I agree with a lot of the Christians here in my conception of heaven/hell and who will ultimately be joined with God in the afterlife. I think it's about 'knowing' God I suppose, and there are many ways to do that, and righteousness, knowing God through deeds, doesn't require sometime to 'believe' in the concept of God per se. People can know God through their deeds and behaviour even if they don't, I suppose, realise that they do know Her. Also there is the old thing about many people who don't live with a faith day to day and who may profess to be agnostic or atheist but who often pray or suddenly speak to God in times of hardship . Which is fine, God is there for them. But they knew that all along or they wouldn't have turned to Her.

...righteousness, knowing God through deeds, doesn't require sometime to 'believe' in the concept of God per se.

This. Very much this.

For Muslims belief in god is the core, without this fundamental belief good actions will not be rewarded with heaven but good people (who are atheists) will be rewarded with good in this life.
Although it’s not enough to just worship god, you have to be good person too.

Again, like with the hitler analogy, if a person sins their whole life but repents sincerely they are forgiven, providing of course that they believe in god and continue to lead a good life until they die

Again, like with the hitler analogy, if a person sins their whole life but repents sincerely they are forgiven, providing of course that they believe in god and continue to lead a good life until they die

Which could be 5 minutes after they sincerely repent, having been a scumbag for 70 years. Yet the atheist who has been a good person for 70 years, hard luck mate.

This isn't a god I'd really want to be with anyway. He/she seems to have a real ego problem, and is way to invested in people believing in him/her.

Thank you for all your posts, very interesting and enlightening to read.

I think (with regards to ops original post) that's fair. Why should God let us into heaven if, throughout our whole life, we don't even acknowledge him? I mean, it is his gaf afterall.

But I also like to think we learn about god by doing good because man is made in gods image and by doing good deeds, he works through us.

I dont agree that simply believing or being a nice person on their own is enough. But both are important, together.

Jews believe all sorts of different things. Officially the Jewish position is that all Jews (debatable whether or not non Jews too) will be resurrected from the dead when the messiah comes. Many ancient jewish thinkers had all sorts of beliefs and some Jews (including chasidic groups) believe in things like reincarnation.

Jews believe we should be good and ask for forgiveness for sins (from the person sinned against then g-d). But you don’t need to be a Jew.

Why should God let us into heaven if, throughout our whole life, we don't even acknowledge him? I mean, it is his gaf afterall.

That's a very fair point. But the problem is, there are only 2 gafs available. If my next door neighbour, who I knew was a really decent person, although they'd never bothered to speak to me as we just didn't get on, ask to stay at my place, I'd say no. But if his only choice was stay at my place, or be thrown into a lake of fire, then I'd let him in.

Because I'm not a mean spirited twat. And being a decent person is more important that liking me.

That is fair too, if you believe in hell in a literal sense. I dont though. I believe as pointed out by someone else further up think, that 'hell is just the absensecof God'. So you die and either have a chance to continue on in heaven or you just don't get through the gate.

Maybe it's like looking through the bars ar a massive party and you just dont get in lol.

*absence of

Interesting post OP, I did a degree in Theology and this is one of those questions that have been around for a long long time and which evoke very strong opinions. And once you've formed an opinion, it's very hard to change sides.

I'm a Muslim and in the Islamic worldview it's not just about doing Good but the intention behind it. In other words, good must be done solely for God and no one else. God is the source of all Good so if a person does a good deed but denies God, then to most Muslims it isn't as beautiful a good as done by someone who does believe in God and acts according to God's pleasure. Like a pp said Muslims believe that Atheists/Agnostics can attain rewards/blessings/success in this world but not after death.

There is another Islamic tradition which if I remember correctly states that there was a person who murdered many people and decided to repent and leave his town and live elsewhere. On the journey he died approximately half way between the two places. An angel was sent down to see exactly which town he was closer to and it was decided that he was just a few inches nearer the new place and so he was forgiven because his last actions represent his desire to turn away from his previous life. To Atheists this makes no sense because the majority of this man's life was full of evil and suffering for many but for believers it represents that it's never too late to change and turn back to God. Now does this mean this person gets off scot free without any punishment at all for his actions? Nobody can say. This is in the hands of God and we can only conjecture. There is another Islamic saying that anyone with an atom's weight of faith will be taken out of hell and enter heaven. Muslims do not believe in purgatory per second but there is a belief that 'bad' believers will first enter Hell and once purified from their sins will then go to heaven.

This is one of those things that comes down to belief or non-belief. I think it's a question that will always be there!

Sorry that should be per se and not per second.... Silly phone