No longer fit in my long time church

[Confusedandworried42]

I've attended a high C of E church for the last 5 years, getting involved in various events and weekly duties. Just over a year ago we got a new vicar. First of all things seemed great, he came from a much larger church and brought parishioners with him, made one of the services more modern and family friendly on the surface and was very much about activism in the local community. I was very happy to see the church expand and flourish. I started getting some alarm bells around his sermons, very much the "we are all sinful and don't deserve God's love" message every week and I thought it would be off putting to first time attendees, but just put it down to the vicar's sermon style. Then during a small group bible study he started telling us about how double predestination is biblically sound and how he knew he was one of God's chosen saved as he was a true Christian. For the uinitiated double predestination is the idea that before the world begun God decided whether you were going to heaven or hell and whatever you do in this life can not change your final destination. I hate this theory, it is utterly repellent to me. I raised with him the problems with it around free will, God's love etc and I was just told to pray about it. I just wondered if anyone else had experienced this change in their church and what they did? My feeling is to withdraw and find somewhere else as I'm so repelled but my local options are limited.

Sounds like an egotistical, self righteous, manipulative, narcissistic bully

I personally don't believe in God, particularly not as a concept that he's like a person, making decisions about the world, people etc. I think perhaps there's something greater out there than we are currently living within but that's aside here.

Honestly, just find a church with somebody who tells you want you need to hear - move on and don't hang around this type of person

Something appears to have gone wrong in the recruitment process. Double predestination is part of Calvinist theology. That is very different to high church or more Catholic theology. I've heard predestination preached in an evangelical C of E church that I thought at the time was barely Anglican but never double predestination but maybe I've led a sheltered life.

Find another church.

I would also write to your bishop. I’m no theologian, but his views sound rather dubious to me. Does his position mean redemption is impossible?

Nope, that doesn't wash with me either. I believe God knows how and where we'll all end up, being an omniscient God, but I also believe it's our individual choices that get us there...he just knows what we will choose! Walk away, but tell the vicar, bishop and everyone else why you're going!

I'd definitely contact the Bish

I may be being stupid but to me the whole New Testament is about being saved by grace and being saved because we believed that Jesus is the way.

Your vicar just sounds like a flawed human like the rest of us ...

I would look for a new church, we've taken in a couple of dozen new people dine a new vicar arrived at a local church and shook things up - our tradition but liberal style isn't for all but our numbers are up.

I'm a pagan but I cannot stand any religious group when it becomes about a personality and not God.
That is the end of the community as far as I'm concerned and yes it happens to us lot too.

*I would also write to your bishop.

This. It really is not acceptable.

Article 17:

17. Predestination and election Predestination to life is the eternal purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he has consistently decreed by his counsel which is hidden from us to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he has chosen in Christ out of mankind and to bring them through Christ to eternal salvation as vessels made for honour. Hence those granted such an excellent benefit by God are called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working at the appropriate time. By grace they obey the calling; they are freely justified, and made sons of God by adoption, are made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ, they walk faithfully in good works and at the last by God's mercy attain eternal happiness. The reverent consideration of this subject of predestination and of our election in Christ is full of sweet, pleasant and inexpressible comfort to the godly and to those who feel within themselves the working of the Spirit of Christ, putting to death the deeds of the sinful and earthly nature and lifting their minds up to high and heavenly consideration establishes and confirms their belief in the eternal salvation to be enjoyed through Christ and kindles a fervent love towards God. But for inquisitive and unspiritual persons who lack the Spirit of Christ to have the sentence of God's predestination continually before their eyes is a dangerous snare which the Devil uses to drive them either into desperation or into recklessly immoral living (a state no less perilous than desperation). Furthermore we need to receive God's promises in the manner in which they are generally set out to us in holy Scripture, and in our actions we need to follow that will of God which is clearly declared to us in the Word of God.

Honestly I would take a break, find a nondenominational church perhaps for a few weeks before you come to any decisions. I would urge you to consider why you attended the church you did in the first place. Was it simply because it was local and/or where family or friends have gone? If that's the case then I feel you really need to explore its creed more and give it prayerful consideration.

Whatever you do next though, be it stay in that particular congregation, find a new church or convert out of Christianity, please make sure your local bishop/diocese is aware of this issue. You'll be helping the church family you've made over the last 5 years even if you decide not to be part of it anymore.

This sounds like the makings of a cult leader. That would explain why and how he was able to bring a bunch of congregants with him from the former church — cult of personality.

He’s likely using double predestination as a means to single out people he thinks are going to hell or heaven within his flock. That can easily be used to manipulate people into doing lots of unsavoury things. I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s abuse going on.

Raise the flag with the bishop and I’d do some digging around the circumstances he left his previous church. This feels unseemly.

Craftygin rightly pints out that predestination is one of the 39 articles which are part of the historic formularies of the C of E. However these were written when the C of E was a much more Protestant faith. The Book of Common Prayer is very Protestant in its theology which is ignored by many congregations who like it as it what they are used to rather than understanding what it really says.

The C of E is a broad church with looks like dry Protestant, almost Pentecostal charismatic, more Catholic than the RCs, choral and civic and all points in between. This is why parish profiles are so important. What does the parish actually want and what are they prepared to compromise on?

My parish describes itself as liberal catholic. I'm modern catholic. There is a difference but I can work with it. What they might have said they wanted was a nice young vicar with a wife who didn't work and some small children. His job would be to grow the parish so that they could give up the jobs they had been doing for years. The danger with this approach this part of the UK is that young male clerics are more likely to be in the charismatic evangelical mould and the style of worship and theology that undergirds the sermons would be radically different from what my parish has experienced in the past.

There isn't much a parish can do once someone has been appointed. It is a poor fit but this should have been sorted out at the recruitment stage.

Urgh I would leave, where is his preaching that your relationship with God is what the faith is about???

I agree it sounds like he is going to very dangerous and be controlling etc...

If he has said things in the small group study, discuss it, challenge him, get him to clarify.

Predestination is a doctrine of the Church of England. It has plenty of support in scripture. It makes sense through our experience in that some people never respond to the word of God and are not regenerate.

But scripture also tells us to keep praying for those people.

We, as Christians, do not know who has been predestined to life, so we have to have hope that any given person we encountered is, even if they are currently hostile.

I really wouldn’t leave a church family for this reason. It’s a point of theology that does not impact on anything practical. It’s good that his sermons aren’t blah.

I echo all the PPs who say to raise your concerns with the bishop.
I’d also start trying out other local churches, to see if one of them is more in keeping with the love and forgiveness of God.
The God who suffered crucifixion out of love of humanity, is not one who “pre condemns” people without right of appeal.
“Ask and thou shalt receive” applies to mercy and salvation through Christ - for all people, not just some mythical “elect”.
Put your trust in God’s infinite love and compassion, not the narcissistic ravings of a man who sounds like he should never have been ordained, and is using his job as a source of narcissistic supply from his flock of cult followers.

You know, in any vibrant church fellowship, you are going to get a variety beliefs about various aspects of theology. In my fellowship, for example, we have people who are ‘young earth creationists’ and others who are ‘old earth creationists’. Do they impact on one another? No! They still work and worship together.

At this vicar’s installation, he would have promised to uphold the 39 Articles. I doubt there’s much to bother the bishop with.

New church OP.

I am sorry about this.
I would definitely raise this with the Bishop (and Archdeacon). But I would also look around for another Church - it is sad, but friends have also had to move on because new Vicar's brought teaching they couldn't agree with.

Please don't leave without saying something. Definitely get in touch with the bishop.

It's worrying to think that he's in a position of authority with these views. How can he possibly share the good news of Jesus effectively with the congregation/local community if he believes that the decision of heaven/hell is already made?

His theology needs questioning from someone with more authority within the church.

In my congregation we don't have any young or old earth creationists. It sounds quite conservative Protestant. Mine Is a liberal church where some are still not sure that Jesus is divine. My preaching has challenged that viewpoint which was much more common in the 1970s than it is now. The C of E is broad!

If the OPs church has gone from high (Catholic) to low (Protestant) then there is a mismatch. Whether that means staying or going is up to the OP. I'm sure they aren't the only ones who are feeling a bit unsettled. What do the churchwardens, PCC, Layreaders think?

@CraftyGin but double predestination is very different to the theory of predestination.

It's not a commonly held view.

I don’t think it is.

If some are predestined to life, then others must be predestined to separation from God.

It’s not a commonly discussed doctrine.

I don’t really see what is so tragic about the OP’s new vicar. He seems to believe in the sovereignty of God and that all our blessings come from his grace.

Thank you for everyone's comments.

What they might have said they wanted was a nice young vicar with a wife who didn't work and some small children. His job would be to grow the parish so that they could give up the jobs they had been doing for years. The danger with this approach this part of the UK is that young male clerics are more likely to be in the charismatic evangelical mould and the style of worship and theology that undergirds the sermons would be radically different from what my parish has experienced in the past.

This is exactly what happened, and though I don't agree with CraftyGin's philosophy they are right in that it is part of the C of E in terms of the Article quoted (I never knew this before he said it and I started digging) but it is a contentious issue for many so I'm not sure I have anything to raise with the bishop. Also, I believe he is good friends with him, a 'golden boy' for want of a better word so I doubt the bishop will do anything and possibly holds the same views. I have gently broached this with others I know but it seems most are delighted with him, maybe it is just me or maybe they aren't really listening to what he is saying in his sermons. I think part of the issue is it came as a shock to me, I was delighted with him at first as well, as he is very welcoming, chatty and smiley. He's a door knocker as well with a group of others, I don't know how much success they have, this again I thought was only the domain of the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons, I think I will have to find a new church as I'm just not comfortable with him and his teachings.

I'd be leaving too, that is a message that I feel very uncomfortable with, it tends to be spouted by those whose idea of social justice is limited to being good to themselves.

The Bishop might agree with him theologically 100% (or not) but as a "senior manager" should be concerned that as well as bringing new people to a church (probably just displaced from other churches) the new vicar is alienating part of the congregation.
I actually know this has caused our local area all kinds of administrative challenges as St B's is a small parish so is always in a "united benefice" with another Church. But it started off 20 years ago united with St A's, then there was a change of vicar so it changed to be united with St C's. However when St C's got a new Vicar (and I assume St A's had changed again) it ended up moving back to St A's.
As I used to go to St C's and I know several friends have left over teaching changes, I can quite understand St B's attitude - I also believe their views were overlooked somewhat the last time the Vicar changed.