No longer fit in my long time church

[Confusedandworried42]

I've attended a high C of E church for the last 5 years, getting involved in various events and weekly duties. Just over a year ago we got a new vicar. First of all things seemed great, he came from a much larger church and brought parishioners with him, made one of the services more modern and family friendly on the surface and was very much about activism in the local community. I was very happy to see the church expand and flourish. I started getting some alarm bells around his sermons, very much the "we are all sinful and don't deserve God's love" message every week and I thought it would be off putting to first time attendees, but just put it down to the vicar's sermon style. Then during a small group bible study he started telling us about how double predestination is biblically sound and how he knew he was one of God's chosen saved as he was a true Christian. For the uinitiated double predestination is the idea that before the world begun God decided whether you were going to heaven or hell and whatever you do in this life can not change your final destination. I hate this theory, it is utterly repellent to me. I raised with him the problems with it around free will, God's love etc and I was just told to pray about it. I just wondered if anyone else had experienced this change in their church and what they did? My feeling is to withdraw and find somewhere else as I'm so repelled but my local options are limited.

Sorry for the thick question but if it's all predestined, what's the point in going to church at all?

I'm Catholic, not CofE, so the hierarchy & system of governance isn't exactly the same but from my pov, I'd be asking what you hope to achieve as the outcome and what outcome you think each action would produce. For example, what do you think the bishop would do in a best case scenario? If he does agree with you and talks to the vicar, it's unlikely he will be able to change his mind on an issue of fundamental theology. He could tell him not to preach about it, but the double predestination thing on its own is unlikely to be the only element of his theology you find objectionable. Do you think he should move the vicar to another parish? How likely is that (my understanding of CofE is limited but I didn't think that was how average ministerial placements worked)? Would you then be without a minister altogether? Would that be better or worse.

Ditto for getting together a petition/ grass roots opposition ... what do you realistically think the outcome would be and what would you want?

Sadly, I think your only option might be a different parish.

The door knocking is not confined to JW and Mormons, by the way, I know quite a lot of mainstream Christians, including Catholics, who do it.

@timeforakinderworld because if you don't bother going to church, and doing all the good works, it's a sign you're not really predestined to be saved. If you are amongst the elect, you will behave accordingly. If you don't, it's a sign you are amongst the reprobate.

Not my theology, just explaining the logic.

Sorry for the thick question but if it's all predestined, what's the point in going to church at all?

So we can live life to the full.

Radical new vicars makes me wonder what was in the Parish Profile (produced by PCC) , and how the reps and Area Dean and Bishop managed the recruitment process.

It will be no accident that this dynamic, young vicar ended up in your church. Maybe he is exactly what the powers-that-be wanted, and what most people prayed for.

However, if you do find a perfect church, don’t go, as you will surely spoil it. (This is a well known cliché, not something designed to offend you).

Saying that, perhaps this is the right season for you to move on. You may have reached your potential in this church and need a new fellowship where you can continue to grow.

I've not experienced this but have heard and read about it. I find it scary and not in keeping with an awesome but loving God.

It's understandable that you no longer feel comfortable. Predestination and what your vicar preaches is not in keeping with the CofE. I wonder if the hierarchy know about him and his beliefs? If they don't, they should!

Also I don't like the idea of door knocking, it is so intrusive. They don't do it in my area (we have four Anglican churches nearby, two within very easy walking distance). What does happen is, occasionally, a leaflet or note is put through the door inviting us to something that is happening at the church, which is quite reasonable.

Most of the Baptist churches don't buy into your vicar's message, they're nice and friendly churches too.

Find another fellowship. I bet you won't be the only one to leave that church.

Rachel - predestination is one of CofE’s doctrines. Article 17.

Telling others about Jesus is also a key part of the faith. Not many of us are brave enough to door-knock, although we do have a door-knocking ministry in our fellowship.

Thank you Crafty, I've not come across Anglicans who believe in predestination but I know the CofE is a broad church.

I believe we cannot earn God's favour, it is freely given and no one actually deserves it, but am unsure about some aspects of predestination. It depends on interpretation.

There is more to it than just the church profile but I'm worried it might be outing, basically his appointment was part experiment he came from another church in the dioceses where he was curate, recently ordained so first parish, the living has run out at our church so there was no money to pay vicars salary. Part of the idea was that as he was bringing congregation with him his salary could be covered from expanded congregations contributions.

I may be being stupid but to me the whole New Testament is about being saved by grace and being saved because we believed that Jesus is the way.

What, even James 2:24?

As I said, his appointment was no accident.

Not sure if the is COfE-wide or just my diocese’s policy, but all churches have to be able to support a vicar/rector. If they can’t do this by their own giving, they need to merge or make dramatic changes.

It sounds like money is a factor in your church, OP, and the bishop is looking for creative and pragmatic ways to ensure that each deanery can represent the full breadth of Anglicanism. It might even be a church plant in disguise.

Do you have a new church development plan?

What, even James 2:24?

Not to cherry-pick bible verses, but what about the Fruit of the Spirit (Galations)?

The Fruit of the Spirit precedes good works. Cause and effect. I can personally testify.

Well OP, in thi situation, I'd bypass the bishop altogether and approach a higher authority. No, not that high, he's got enough on his plate - I mean the Archbishop of Canterbury. Why not? Write and say that you are having a crisis of faith brought about by a change in minister at your church and explain what has happened, what this new vicar has said, and why you have a problem with it.

I would have a severe problem with it too.

Yeah, and Mr Welby is an HTB Evangelical.

This does sound like some sort of informal church graft. It can work well if the minister respects the tradition they are moving into. I know of a number of churches that have been taken over by HTB (Holy Trinity Brompton) where there is one service in the style of the old church (liberal, Anglo Catholic, choral,BCP or whatever) and the new vicar has concentrated on a new service with a praise band and teaching sermons, often in the evening, to bring in a new congregation.

How it works with more Protestant, St Helens Bishopsgate style churches I don't know.

I think it is very difficult to have a mix of churchmanships. It is easy enough to have a hymn/robes, informal CW, charismatic set of services, where you basically have the same teaching.

It is difficult when you feel you are no longer part of a church, OP. One option would be to move congregation. The alternative is to stay put and get into further discussion around the issue although, it sounds like the vicar isn't that up for discussion which is a shame. Or you can keep going to the church and avoid the topic of predestination altogether. The discussion around predestination, as with many contentious topics within the church, has been around for centuries and led to many church schisms so you are not alone in your difficulties!

I'm a Scottish Presbyterian by background so predestination is something I have been brought up with. I find it incredibly freeing and totally compatible with God's grace. God is so gracious that he has already saved us without us having to do anything. God does not work in linear time like we do so he already knows who has taken on his grace, hence it looks to us like people are predestined to be saved.

I'm currently living in England and going to a CofE church and what strikes me is that, without an understanding of predestination, everyone at church seems to feel they need to DO things to be saved. They have to come to church to get their child into the school, they have to help with this or that or join the choir....the busyness just seems endless. Chill out guys, it's all predestined

But @kaffkooks, the OP wasn't talking about simple predestination, which as has been mentioned is standard CofE doctrine. She said the vicar is teaching double predestination, which is the theology that not only does God will some people to be saved, but that he actively wills the damnation of those who are not saved. This is in Calvin but even modern Presbyterians don't teach it now, and CofE certainly don't. It is very much a minority view.

@kaffkooks - do you really think that anyone things that going to church to get your kids into school will get them into heaven?
Nope you come from Scotland with a very different educational set up and are now in England in an area where the best schools have a religious selection criteria. In areas (like mine) where the local C of E school isn't particularly desirable you will see none of that "going to church to get your kids into school" activity. If you don't get it there is an episode of Rev which illustrates this exactly - when there is rumour that the Church school is about to get an "Outstanding rating" from Ofsted.

This has nothing to do with the doctrine of predestination.

Please please please write to your Bishop. It's what they're there for. I work for a Bishop and I know they'd want to know.

So a bit of an update, I went to the methodist church last Sunday just to see what it was like and spoke to the minister in confidence about how I was feeling and he was very kind and understanding. I decided it was time to move churches as the feeling I got at the service was the complete opposite of how I had been feeling and felt spiritually lifted for the first time in ages. On Monday I called one of the church wardens at current church explaining that I was leaving the church, that the new spiritual direction was not for me but wished them every sucess etc. and asking to come off rotas. No problem from her, or so I thought. Yesterday I saw that I had got three missed calls from the new vicar and then a text from him asking if he could come over to my house on Saturday so I could explain to him my decision and that I hadn't fully understood the implications of leaving the church. Well I freaked out a bit, I sent him a text saying I did not want to talk about it and politely explained my issues with some of the messages I had been hearing, and that my personal belief was there were many paths to God and he wouldn't change my mind and I did not want him to try. I have not had a response so hopefully that is the end of it, but I'm a bit worried about seeing him when I am out about and also have visions of me and the dog hiding behind the sofa with him knocking on the door on Saturday. However, I'm so glad I made the decision I have and I appreciate everyone's comments and advice.

Be out on Saturday. And save the messages. As someone said up thread, he has cult-ish tendencies

@ChampagneCommunist I will do and that is good advice!

As Champagne said. Good luck.

Goodness this sounds like a right mess OP! Poor you! What are you going to do now?