Forgiveness vs challenging a person?

[BeCoolYolande]

I'm writing this in philosophy and religion intentionally.

In brief, after a childhood full of the kind of Christianity which was full of terrible hypocrisy I turned my back on all of that at an early age.

Now I'm at a point in my life where I realise that I feel the need to acknowledge my own spirituality, albeit without Christianity. I haven't told anyone about this.

As I work through my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs I'm aware that a few people close to me are behaving in a way that chips away at me. I keep my feelings to myself, I know that they are not responsible for my feelings and that I must learn to forgive.

What I'd like to know is this; in your opinion, given your own belief system, when do you forgive someone and when do you challenge their behaviour?

AIBU is full of people who are told to challenge the behaviour of others.

In my life there are a few people who ABU on a regular basis, nothing major, no-one is hitting me or threatening me but when is it ok to challenge them ie 'I would ask that you don't leave me out of x,y or z again, choosing to meet up with mutual friends while I babysit your DCs' and when should I just forgive them? This isn't the real situation, but just an example.

Thank you

There is nothing to forgive.

Stop perceiving and judging and just observe without judgement. You should feel a difference.
The difference being peacefulness and calmness. This feeling is your spiritual home.

Surely it's impossible to stop perceiving at some level?

Not judging, no.
It's possible to not judge but perception must happen?

A person is seeking to directly harm me, I've been good at ignoring them and not responding to it but it still does hurt.
How do I stop perceiving that this is happening?
I'll do my best to stop judging it.

The person that is perceiving you and judging you has more of a maelstrom of the mind going on. How sad is that and isn't it more compassionate to understand their predicament.
The mind is only a servant, you are the master.
The mind is obviously controlling the poor individual that is aiming his mis-perception at you.
Transcend the mind, both yours and theirs.

I don't think we always need to forgive. I have had people in my life that I won't forgive, but I have been able to accept, assimilate and move on. Forgiveness in not always neccessary.

I’m a loyal and forgiving person BUT I have to talk it through; have my say either with the person (whom I need to forgive) or with others who can be my ‘mirror’ and tell me if I ABU or not.

For me, that validation helps me to forgive easier, with less judgement and at times, without calling out the person.

A recent example was someone close to me had been distant and I’d heard had talked about me behind my back. I spoke about it to someone else - we discussed the options and consequences of tackling it “head on” and other options. There was then a dumbed down version of my speaking to the person who’d upset me. Amongst all of this, I’d written down what I would have loved to have sent to this person in a text / email (I didn’t send it) This helped to formulate what I wanted to say articulately without being mean or judgemental.

Thank you

As I work through the way to my own spiritual path someone in my life is deliberately causing me pain.
I do acknowledge that this is probably a test of my faith but I'm not sure how to react or not react, if you prefer I'm not sure if or how to let it 'sit'. Whether to speak up for myself which is my gut reaction or say nothing and try to believe that everything will be ok. Or even a combination of the two.

The differing perspectives here are interesting to read.

noe whilst I've agreed for many years that when people treat you badly this is a reflection of their own inner turmoil I've always made it my personal choice not to behave badly to others as a result of my own pain. This person cannot possibly know the pain I carry with me and I'm trying to let go. They may be behaving badly because of their pain but my reasonable behaviour is not representative of a lack of suffering on my part.

Why do we need to forgive?

The primary tenet of Christianity is forgiveness. It's what the religion is based on. Some people abuse that by behaving monstrously and rationalising that Christ will and therefore people should forgive their sins.
I think it's important for psychological health to make a clear distinction between forgiveness and weakness. You can forgive someone, as in not seek revenge for their actions, not feel eaten up with hatred by their actions, but still stay strong in your self-preservation e.g. choose not to see them or interact with them, choose to challenge their belief system or behaviour, choose to refuse to be affected by their hatred or wrath when it's pitched at you for failing to do as they expect.

I don't know if that's philosophical enough for you but that's my take on it.

growlingbear Maybe your take- a christian perspective. So not valid for all TBH.

I think you might find transactional analysis helpful. One of the original books on it is "I'm OK you're OK" although the first few chapters are a little dry.

Essentially, it teaches you how to understand and respond to other people's behaviour from your adult state (objective, non-judging but able to express your authentic feelings) rather than the parent state (judging, controlling and condemning) or the wounded child state (e.g. behaviours learned as a child due to what has hurt you in the past i.e. you might have learned not to express your anger and be passive aggressive instead, or you might tend to withdraw from difficult situations and pretend everything's ok). It is a psychoanalytical approach rather than spiritual.

On forgiveness, I think people often misunderstand it as meaning that you are "letting off" the other person or effectively saying that what they did wasn't that bad. Forgiveness to me is more of a choice to understand that the other person is flawed (as we all are) and to choose not to condemn them, and to try not to dwell on your hurt or anger. It doesn't mean you behave as if what they did never happened. E.g. an abused wife could forgive her husband and feel free of the need to hang onto those feelings of blame and anger but it does not mean she should go back to her husband or act to keep herself safe from him.

I read I'm Ok - You're Ok many years ago and it was old then! Which doesn't make it invalid far from it I'll see if I can dig it out.

I've found the Forgiveness Project helpful. It isn't from any one faith perspective as there are people of faith and no faith sharing their stories.

www.theforgivenessproject.com

From your posts it sounds like there are a number of issues. Things that have happened in the past might be where you are looking at forgiveness. My experience is that we don't have to rush to forgive. There is often grief is some kind and that needs to be worked through and takes as long as it takes. In my own grief work I'm in anger right now and that is ok. It won't last for ever.

Perhaps with current issues you might look at boundaries? Counselling of some kind might help if that is the case. I also use translational analysis when I sense my self getting wound up by someone. Are they putting me into the child role or demanding that I be their parent? I find meditation helpful. For me what I'm doing it is nearer to contemplative prayer than modern mindfulness but the neuroscience is the same as far as I can tell.

Perhaps not having anyone to talk to about this is part of the problem.

Random thoughts on a Monday.

Reading this back - no one should be causing you intentional pain. Do not excuse their behaviour. Talk to someone - Police, GP, healthvisitor?

It's not my husband or anyone I live with.

MostlyDrinksTea thank you for your long post, I'll look at the forgiveness project and I really do need to dig out I'm Ok, You're Ok again. Thank you

OP, I think you are missing out a stage in the process.
Repentance has to come before forgiveness!
If these people have not repented for their sin of ill treating you, and made every effort to make amends, and promised not to repeat the offence - then they haven’t asked for or merited your forgiveness. And there is no requirement for you to give it.
Even God doesn’t forgive sin unless it is confessed in prayer and genuinely repented - after which His forgiveness is absolute.

You know what, Babdoc? You really might be on to something there.

Funnily enough I can say without bitterness that I forgive my awful DDad, before he passed away he did acknowledge that he had treated me badly.

'D'H 1 I can forgive him, not because he is repentant, he is incredibly flawed I'd say he's a genuine sociopath but because at the ultimate moment he did eventually stop fighting and walk away, which is as close to an admission of wrongdoing as he can manage.
Besides, it was all years ago, I've been married to DH 2 and we are genuinely happy.

The person who currently is genuinely setting out to cause real trouble for me lacks awareness. I've witnessed the way this person behaves towards their own adult DCs, it's like they the person I'm finding it hard to forgive needs to single someone out to bully. They won't be repentant, I don't think it would occur to them.

As this situation is current I wonder whether forgiveness is something that applies retrospectively? When I have perspective? Right now I'm in the middle of events, an aspect of my life is challenging and I'm trying to meet the challenge with peace and love.

Is a passive, peaceful and loving approach enough for now? I'm wondering whether I should focus on forgiving myself instead of forgiving the perpetrator?
Or should I fight?
I'm trying to be a good person.

Forgiving people doesn't mean not addressing issues if they are important to you. Think about it, someone who commits a crime can be forgiven but they still have to receive a sentence or a fine according to the law.

When it comes to relationships with friends, colleagues, etc, it all depends on how much you are hurt by their attitudes and actions. Some things are small in the general scheme and you can let them go but if you are really 'bugged', you must change the situation. For example, if you feel you are being taken advantage of, just be less available. There's nothing noble about being exploited. If people are rude, you don't have to be friendly with them, you can still be civil when your paths cross. You'll feel better if you set the bar a little higher, it will be good for your self esteem.

It's good to forgive though, don't give up doing that and, if it is difficult, ask God to forgive them.

Take care of yourself!

I believe you forgive people because they aren't perfect. They have hurt you because they lack a certain level of understanding. Like an infant is quickly and frequently forgiven or mistakes. Wrong doings most often occur in ignorance. So, in answer to your question, they don't need to be challenged before you forgive them and it is not an either or. With the challenge, if I understand your meaning correctly, then you are introducing new information which hopefully will give them the knowledge required for their correction. The realisation might also be self realisation once they have thought about their actions. After that stage repentance is more likely. So repentance is not necessary for forgiveness. The person has to have knowledge of what they have done first. Even if you have challenged them they might not fully appreciate and understand your point.

And regards the question of 'needing to forgive', I just think being able to forgive requires a greater level of empathy as well as self knowledge. It shows recognition of the fact people, including ourselves, are not perfect and require forgiveness if we are all to get along.

I don't buy into the idea of imperfection either- again a horribly christian bias.

speakout, really? How novel. So you think you are perfect, behave perfectly, with perfect thinking, perfect bodily functioning, never making any mistakes?

And I would have thought a bit of hubris and humility, recognising one's own imperfections was not exclusively a Christian concept, either....

silverystream

You don't get it.

I refuse to fram myself in these terms, the idea of imerfection, sin etc give me the shudders.
It is you who are claiming that I think I am perfect, not me.
Your framing.

Take a herd of elephants, cognisent, sentient animals. would you look at a line up and say " look at those elephants- they are all imperfect"- no it's ludicrous. They all have personaility traits, which will have an influence on the well being of the herd , but to say that they are imperfect is silly.
They are perfect at being elephants- same with homo sapien-we are all perfectly human.

I refuse to fram myself in these terms

But would you hold others up to a standard? Because if you refuse to consider yourself in terms of perfection why would you find difficulty with forgiveness? If being 'perfectly human' encompasses making mistakes (because we are creatures that need to learn through experience) then we need to accept some people's mistakes may hurt us and that our mistakes may hurt others. Forgiveness is essential for getting along and living with each other.

Forgiveness to me is more of a choice to understand that the other person is flawed (as we all are) and to choose not to condemn them, and to try not to dwell on your hurt or anger. It doesn't mean you behave as if what they did never happened
Excellent explanation! I've read quite a few books on forgiveness and that was a better explanation than all of them!!