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Philosophy/religion

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Forgiveness vs challenging a person?

38 replies

BeCoolYolande · 12/07/2019 14:04

I'm writing this in philosophy and religion intentionally.

In brief, after a childhood full of the kind of Christianity which was full of terrible hypocrisy I turned my back on all of that at an early age.

Now I'm at a point in my life where I realise that I feel the need to acknowledge my own spirituality, albeit without Christianity. I haven't told anyone about this.

As I work through my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs I'm aware that a few people close to me are behaving in a way that chips away at me. I keep my feelings to myself, I know that they are not responsible for my feelings and that I must learn to forgive.

What I'd like to know is this; in your opinion, given your own belief system, when do you forgive someone and when do you challenge their behaviour?

AIBU is full of people who are told to challenge the behaviour of others.

In my life there are a few people who ABU on a regular basis, nothing major, no-one is hitting me or threatening me but when is it ok to challenge them ie 'I would ask that you don't leave me out of x,y or z again, choosing to meet up with mutual friends while I babysit your DCs' and when should I just forgive them? This isn't the real situation, but just an example.

Thank you Thanks

OP posts:
OutwiththeOutCrowd · 17/07/2019 14:44

We ought to be able to forgive. This seems to be a deeply ingrained principle in our society, an agreed ideal, thanks in part to a Christian heritage. But in practice forgiveness is not always the best policy. A stark example. If you are in a physically abusive relationship, forgiving can be dangerous. It could lead to inadequate self-protection - wrong for you, for the abuser, and for any children around, who could end up with a distorted idea of how to negotiate human relations.

But what should be done if the acts involved are more insidious, a succession of digs, slights or unkindnesses, rather than obvious abuse, as seems to be the case for BeCoolYolande? Bystanders, not understanding the cumulative effect of 1000 small cuts, might urge forgiveness. Your own conscience might agree. (It’s not important. They didn’t really mean it. Move on.) You are then left with a double burden. The stress of having been chipped away at for a protracted time and the guilt of being unable to fulfil society’s expectation - and your own - that you practise forgiveness.

When I find myself in such situations I try to imagine that the victim of the anti-social behaviour is not me but instead a cherished friend who has come to me for support. Would my initial response be to suggest to them that they be selfless and look for the good in the other person and forgive them because it’s the Christian way? I don’t think so. I’d feel protective of my friend and not expect them to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps and be forgiving in the first instance. My priority would be to validate them in their feelings, hear them out and acknowledge and understand their hurt. This has to come first.

So don’t dismiss your own emotional pain. Recognise what has happened, what is happening, and the validity of your own feelings.

To misquote a certain someone, ‘Thou shalt love thyself as thy neighbour.’

Then, if you are going to have to spend a lot of time with the person who is behaving in an anti-social way towards you, talk it through with them if you possibly can. Explain how you feel but resist accusing them of anything. Confrontation rarely works. If you know that any exchange will just lead to frustration on your part, and a stubborn lack of understanding on theirs, talking it through with someone else who isn’t involved, someone whose wise counsel you value, is a reasonable alternative.

And think of the ultimate goal as letting go of pain rather than forgiveness, though forgiveness may follow in a natural and unforced way in due course when the whole matter has been properly processed and ceases to loom so large. In the short term, at least, if a productive conversation about the issues is unlikely, this might mean seeing less of the wrongdoer, or, if that’s not practical, creating some emotional distance between you and them when you do see them.

Vowing not to hand your sense of who you are over to them on a silver platter in the future will definitely help too!

BeCoolYolande · 17/07/2019 14:58

Rachelover40 taking your point about people still being punished in law that's human justice, not divine justice. There are some countries whose justice systems I don't endorse.
I'm not meaning to be unkind, not least of all because you've been very kind to me in your post.

Rather, I'm trying to work through what forgiveness really is and how it sits with me, particularly in my current situation.

As I said upthread, I have forgiven people who have treated me appallingly in the past but there's an all too current clash with my own search for answers and someone treating me badly and them pushing for a negative outcome for me.
I'm trying to rise above it but sometimes it's difficult not to react.

Agreed Friar, Kinga's description is excellent.

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Rachelover40 · 17/07/2019 16:07

You're only human, BeCoolYolande. These issues are difficult and no one get things right all the time.

"...there's an all too current clash with my own search for answers and someone treating me badly and them pushing for a negative outcome for me. "

It wouldn't be unreasonable for you to tell them in a straightforward manner that you think they're out of order, then have no unnecessary contact. Anyone pushing for a 'negative outcome' for someone else is devious and unkind, the chances are you're not their only victim.

Flowers
speakout · 17/07/2019 16:41

OutwiththeOutCrowd

Totally agree.

I was abused, raped beaten by my OH for years.

I don't wnat to forgive him.
I am however healed, have moved on, and in many ways strengthened by surving.

It is very partonising to be told that in order for me to be healed I need to forgive him.

I really don't.

silverystream · 17/07/2019 17:15

I think you can recognise someone is abusive, dangerous and forgive them in the sense you acknowledge something is wrong within them to treat you this way. Following on from that thought, vengeance is not sought because it is not an effective way to correct the flaw in them. The not seeking vengeance is the forgiveness bit. This does not mean you have to accept their behaviour or not protect yourself from it. Even in the most extreme circumstances someone may have to act in self defence, physically, but still at the same time forgive their attacker.

silverystream · 17/07/2019 17:20

How would you define forgiveness, speakout? Do you seek vengeance? That I would understand as a kind of emotional pain, something left undone, unrectified.

If you don't I would say forgiveness has occurred. If you do seek vengeance I wouldn't describe that as healed.

speakout · 17/07/2019 17:30

silverystream so you say that "not seeking vengeance" is forgiveness?

I don't seek vangeance, I have no real feelings and the wrongs that were done to me rarely cross my mind.

To me that's isn't forgiveness,

silverystream · 17/07/2019 17:32

Yes, that is how I define it speakout. How do you define forgiveness?

speakout · 17/07/2019 17:42

I guess for me it's about understang and accepting the motivations of others. To acknowledge that a person was in a place themselves whereby making a bad decision was understandable.

I happily forgive all sorts of little things that don't have a major impact.

If my 3 year old finds a pen scribbles on the wall, then I can understand, accept their motivations even if they are making a poor choice,.
They are young, curious, bored, mischievious- and I should have hidden the pen.
They made a mark, it can be fixed, our relationship is strong and not spoilt by that one action.

A grown man repeatedly rapes his wife? I really have no interest in examining his space and feelings at that time- as the victim- I really don't care what led him to that decision.
That action is one I choose not to forgive.

silverystream · 17/07/2019 18:04

speakout, I would just assume there was something deeply wrong within a man such as you describe. I wouldn't spend a lot of thought on it, necessarily, but that would be my assumption.

silverystream · 17/07/2019 18:14

To acknowledge that a person was in a place themselves whereby making a bad decision was understandable.

I think this can be difficult if that person has a problem with their thought processes which then lead them to wrongdoing. If you don't have the same problem you wouldn't necessarily be able to unpick their thinking. Especially if their thinking is delusional.

silverystream · 17/07/2019 18:23

I don't need to be able to understand to forgive. I just assume the wrongdoing is the result of a flaw. I think I needing to fully understand motives would make forgiveness too difficult and require to much emotional energy.

BeCoolYolande · 20/07/2019 09:50

Maybe this makes me a wuss Rachelover40 but I can't summon up the anger to wish the same sadness on this person that they are enacting on me. I'm trying to find a way to reduce my contact with this person, I know I'm not their only victim. The situation is making me feel very sad, I'm trying very hard not to be.
Thank you for your kindness Thanks

speakout I personally haven't said that in order to heal you need to forgive, my position is one of within all usual caveats it's a case of whatever gets you through. It helps me too to try to understand the motivations of the person hurting me. In my own situation I know that I'm not the first and, to that extent, it's not about me. Except that right now it's aimed very personally.

I don't believe in revenge either silverystream. Even the whole looking good is the best revenge thing only works if you feel personally better in the pursuit of looking good, if that makes sense?

During my musings I've been thinking that spiritually this is a test of my commitment to my path. Certainly, it's tough going. I'd appreciate any recommendations for good books/podcasts/YouTube videos that might help me to either see things clearly I will make my own mind up too! or offer me comfort.

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