The problem of Hell

[StonedRoses]

I know this is an issue that has confused theologians, philosophers and thinkers for ages and I’m wondering if anyone has any pointers or advice.
I’m a liberal Anglican, and DW is an interested agnostic. A well meaning evangelical friend has really upset DW by telling her she prays every day she’ll find Jesus because she is so scared that DW will end up in Hell. She (friend) is really upset by this - DW is upset but bemused.

As a liberal Christian who believes that ultimately God is love I find the concept of condemning the majority of humanity to eternal torment very hard to get my head round. It’s not what I’d do to my kids as a loving father, even if they rejected me.

Friend is no doubt very sincere in her view and thinks she is helping. How do I get her to tactfully back off - and what do I say to DW to explain my own beliefs when I’m not even sure what they are!

It must be said that friend is very black/white and believes the bible is literally true, whereas I enjoy the doubt in my faith and grappling to understand things

Is it even possible to discuss such things with someone who is so black and white? I've been involved with discussions between Christian Universalists and Christian Fundamentalists and it has always resulted in agreeing to disagree, or angry words!

I've come to the conclusion that it is probably personality type, rather than spiritual or religious leanings anyway!

Debate with someone who takes the Bible literally usually does not end well. I say this as someone who has done a fair bit of it. The official position of the C of E and I think the RC is that if hell exists it is empty. There was a lot of coverage of it back in the 1990s www.patheos.com/blogs/tmatt/1996/01/hell-and-the-church-of-england/

I've found that evangelicals are more likely to hold onto the fire and brimstone model of hell. It seems to me that this is about defining who is in and who is out.

As we get older and get more comfortable with paradox and mystery then not knowing or caring who is in and who is out and trusting in God's mercy is another way of being Christian.

Perhaps what people think about hell, its existence or absence says a lot about their image of God. Is God an angry judge or mystery of loving kindness and mercy.

Personality and stages of faith possibly play a big part in this rather than closely argued scriptural debate. I've got a post grad qualifications in theology and have studied this area but am still called unbiblical and a liberal backslider by more conservative Christians.

Same as PP. I'm unsure if speaking to the other woman will help. Though perhaps something along the lines of, "We're dealing with her theological education at home. We appreciate your prayers, but this approach is making her scared of a relationship with god instead of seeking one out." Could go wrong, but at least it's honest. She's more than welcome to pray, but that kind of aggressive behaviour seldom goes well with kids.

I grew up Catholic and in a suuuuuper liberal community. I was lucky in that I was never taught the fire and brimstone approach. I don't even remember having a moment of questioning it, to be honest. Hell was a concept I knew and was familiar with mostly through literature.

Literalism always confuses me just from the getgo...which creation story is the true one? There are two and they're conflicting!

I think the important bit is talking to your daughter about it. This woman's concern, though patronizing and damaging, could be genuine. This is her way of showing your daughter she cares. Perhaps that could be a spin? It could also be a teaching point to show that even within the same religious umbrella, you have a huge range of attitudes and behaviours...people can even be part of the same umbrella and have different beliefs and that's a-okay!

Why is your wife remotely upset about being told, as a non believer, that she is going to hell?

Would she be upset if a child told her that if she doesn't believe in Santa, she won't get any presents?

Thanks everyone - some good thoughts that explain things better than I can. The concept of an empty hell makes some sense to me.

My wife is upset (a bit) because she’s a confused agnostic, not a confirmed atheist and anyway it’s never nice to be told you face an eternity of torment. However I think it’s actually our friend who’s most upset - because she really does belief in fire and brimstone and doesn’t want my wife to face this. She’s a very good friend in so many ways and I know she means well so it’s tricky.
I have no idea where she thinks me with my liberal beliefs is going....

I think you could politely say to said friend that you can agree to disagree and to avoid talking about religion in the future.

If your wife is truly interested in finding out about yours or any other religion or her own spirituality she can do her own research.

I believe there is some thing other than the material world but believe hell is something we create ourselves or not in this life/world.

Maybe explain to the friend that talking a lot about hell might be putting DW off Christianity? Sometimes just being a good honest friend, living her life well can be the best witness. People with and without faith have different things they find problematic/convincing. Sometimes just listening to someone’s thoughts and asking a few gentle questions can be helpful (though for some people the fire and brimstone might be thought provoking I guess)....

As I’ve got older, I’ve found - it’s ok not to know. I find the parable of sheep and goats comforting in that maybe there will be big surprises in the end. We cannot know, and I guess we’re probably not meant to spend lots of time agonising about it - rather getting along with trying to love our neighbour and God, praying - which is hard enough!

Sometimes just being a good honest friend, living her life well can be the best witness. That's it, live it not preach it.

A well meaning evangelical friend has really upset DW by telling her she prays every day she’ll find Jesus because she is so scared that DW will end up in Hell.

So she's praying for your wife, is she worried about anyone else? Seems like it's actually selfish to just be worrying about people she likes.

It's all nonsense obviously. It's a bit tricky for you though as you can't totally dismiss it because you also claim to believe the bible albeit with a more 20th century watered down interpretation.

I am reading a book at the moment called 'Surprised by Hope' by an ex Anglican Bishop. It's an interesting theological discussion about what Christians really believe and what the bible actually says about 'life after death'. It goes on to talk about the implications in this life. Suggest you have a read (should fit well with your liberal views, obviously its only one way of thinking about this). Would be good for talking point with DW.

DW needs to ignore 'friend'. People looking to 'save' others need to take a long hard look at themselves. Perhaps tell her that she is dangerously close to judging DW herself and thats not hers but Jesus' job.

If DW has been agnostic for many years then promises about the life after death of any sort are clearly no incentive. She needs to come to God in her own time and own way. You and friend should let her be. By all means you can share your own experiences of having faith, but dont pressure her. Encourage her to be open to growing in faith but be realistic that it is her own journey.

The eternal torment version of hell is pretty much discredited as a human invention way back when (back in the middle ages?). There are probably more books on this citing serious credible religious thinkers.

Don't try to change the mind of your fundie friend, that can never end well. Its reasonable to ask her to back off from DW, saying that the Lord may yet find a way to open her heart in His own time and in His own way, but that her methods are proving counterproductive and she will end up driving DW further away if she tries any more. Tell her to trust in God and not take it upon herself to be responsible for converting any particular heathen of her acquaintance but instead let her evangelism be by means of being a living picture of how Jesus taught us to live, without combining that with any attempts to persuade with words.

For your DW it is OK to be honest that you don't even know what you believe. Lots of Christians don't.

The idea of a parallel "heaven" that you go to after death and from where you can be conscious of ongoing life on earth is thoroughly unbiblical. What is described is a resurrection of all the dead at the end of the world, followed by judgement. There are also clear descriptions that there will be plenty who acknowledged Jesus as Lord in their lives but who didn't live well not being included in the "saved" and people who never knew Jesus as Lord being nevertheless included in the saved as their goodness and kindness showed that they "got it" despite not being Christian. We are also talking about the end of all things including time and matter as we know it. The "eternity" doesn't mean thousands and thousands of years experienced in time, but a single timeless state, like a single moment but without a beginning or an end.

Its reasonable equally to believe that the truth may not align with what is in the bible. Not everyone believes the bible word for word anyway and you have to remember that the writing was done by a bunch of men thousands of years ago and they will have been subject to cultural preconceptions and biases which were never divinely sourced.

Non-biblical options that some people believe is that the unsaved don't experience "hell" but have oblivion, or that "hell" if it exists is empty as any who are not conscious of their salvation in their lifetime will nevertheless become fully conscious of the love of God "at the last trumpet" and will be saved. The "good news" is that we are all saved, but some of us don't know it.

It's a divisive one, for sure. I've done quite a lot of work on this because the idea of eternal conscious torment never sat well with me. All around me people appeared to accept it, and I kind of pushed it away, not wanting to think on it. As I got deeper into my own relationship with God, it became more and more clear that it simply wasn't something I could equate with who God is.

I discovered that the idea of eternal hell is actually not a good biblical position, after all. It's a construct mainly developed through mediaeval times and used as a tool of oppression, in order to extort money from the masses - remember indulgences? As far from Jesus as could possibly be. Certain verses of scripture were used to back it up - they were twisted, lifted out of context, made to say something they really didn't say. Even the translation was dodgy - in most places in the Bible what we might translate as hell is actually Hades, or simply the place of the dead - as in Judeo and Hellenistic thought. There is no precedent for saying that this means eternal torment at all. The ambiguity comes when Jesus' own words have been twisted - but never once did Jesus talk of hell or Gehenna as an eternal tormenting state.

I find the construct of conditional immortality much more compelling and actually biblical too, and possibly a good one to challenge the friend with, although sadly I've found people like this often don't want to know, which seems so odd to me. The idea of a God allowing people who reject him to suffer for eternity seems so off balance with who God is. The CU position is about God giving agency to people: if they don't want to choose God then God will not force them to spend eternity with him. It's in line with free will and the nature of a God who longs for all his children to return to him but won't force them too. For me, universalism doesn't allow for this, so doesn't sit right either, and doesn't quite chime with much of the NT and Jesus' claims that those who believe him will have eternal life. (Note that John 3:16 says anyone who believes in him shall not perish, not anyone who believes in him shall not be tortured by pitchforks for ever and ever. Subtle difference )

I do think there will be judgment, and there should be. Look at the evil we do. God is ultimately just, and will not allow evil unpunished. But there's grace that overcomes judgment. And there's not an eternity sitting on clouds while billions burn all day every day.

I know the verses people will use to try and defend this idea of hell. None of them stand up, from Lazarus and the rich man through to the triippy verses in Revelation, when they're studied properly. And I'm so thankful for that.

I think sadly the idea of eternal hell has been a stumbling block and turned many away from God, and that pains me greatly.

As I got deeper into my own relationship with God, it became more and more clear that it simply wasn't something I could equate with who God is.

Yet many people, as they get deeper into their relationship with god feel the opposite to you. Why can't god tell all these people in deep relationships with him the same thing?

God /gods work in mysterious ways!

Hello headinhands, hope you're well.

I don't just go on feelings, because then anything could be right and okay, and we could never measure what is the truth in these matters. I've studied scriptural texts in great depth on this and alongside many others have come to the conclusion that hell cannot be a place of eternal torment. It is simply unsubstantiated and indefensible. If other Christians say they feel hell is fire and brimstone forever, I will ask them to defend their claim from the Bible, and I just don't think they can.
That's not saying I'm always right because I've studied. Far from it. But just making a case for going beyond a 'deep feeling'. Not enough.

I've studied scriptural texts in great depth on this and alongside many others have come to the conclusion that hell cannot be a place of eternal torment.

While another person, who has studied it 'prayerfully' every bit as thoroughly as you, has come to the opposite conclusion. You can't both be right but you could both be wrong.

I'm well, other than a hideous cold that's knocked any Easter fun on its head.

Huh at illness taking the fun away, hope you feel better soon

I'm with you in solidarity as I have a nasty chest infection so laid up this week, when I just want to be doing stuff with the kids - although to be fair ds just wants to play on his computer and dd is revising for A Levels, so maybe I'm not missing too much

Yes, absolutely understand that people come to different conclusions through careful study, and I'm all for listening to others and allowing for that, but when the conclusion is so damaging I really struggle with that, and find it hard to understand the grounds for their position. And I do think that Christians should be looking most of all to Jesus to form knowledge about who God is, and the idea of eternal punishment simply doesn't seem to fit either his character or his teaching (though he was firm on sin and judgment, so I'm not trying to minimise that at all.)

In the end, I see the medieval idea of hell as holding a threat over people, and so plays into the religion-as-power narrative that I really struggle with. My experience of God isn't one of believing in God because I am scared of eternal damnation, but because I love God and experience God's love and transformation in my life. But yep, I do get that it can be confusing when Christians are arguing among themselves. We're only human, I guess...

But yep, I do get that it can be confusing when Christians are arguing among themselves. We're only human, I guess

But humans that claim to have a 2 way relationship with the creator of the universe, and it's telling everyone different things.

Yy, ds glued to tech, dd half heartedly revising for GCSEs and making pizzas from scratch which seems to require every item in the kitchen! 😂

I think Hell's 'eternal torment' is exactly the SAME torment as those that live on earth without God

ie. not very tormenty at all

Obviously if you're a Christian then the idea of living without god looks really crap but to the people mooching about thinking of pizza and buying some tomatoes who don't KNOW what it's like with God it's fine.

at least she's being a bit useful, my ds can't unglue himself from the computer to tidy up his trail of toastcrumbs from lunch. Sigh.

But humans that claim to have a 2 way relationship with the creator of the universe, and it's telling everyone different things.

Hmm. Yes, it's problematic, but actually if they are not able to back up what they claim they are being told by God from the BIble in a comprehensive way, then I am afraid I become sceptical about their claims. In fact, Paul warns the new Christians to test out any teaching they are given so they don't fall sway to any old guff, and the measure is whether it matches up to Jesus' teaching and scripture. And the traditional idea of eternal torment in flames falls right down on that one - verses have been twisted out of recognition to suit a narrative that keeps people oppressed, the very opposite to the freedom Paul spoke of.

So it's fine to have different opinions on certain matters - I couldn't care less really about some peripheral stuff like whether priests should wear robes, but when a narrative is preached which keep people in fear and then turn people from faith because of it, then I think there's some serious accounting to be done from certain quarters.

I like the approach to hell that I've heard from some Orthodox. God is love, loves everyone, and God's love is like fire. If you welcome the love, it warms and comforts you. If you reject the love, it burns and you hate it.

Nothing to do with punishment, or torture. Everything to do with perspective.

How mean is it though if the people that rejected it did so because there was no reason to believe it. What a cruel way to sort people into two groups. I don't mean to sound rude but it sounds like he prefers people who don't use their reasoning skills very well.

Watch out for intellect,
because it knows so much it knows nothing
and leaves you hanging upside down,
mouthing knowledge as your heart
falls out of your mouth.

Part of the poem Admonitions To A Special Person by Anne Sexton. Thanks to another MN'er.

Watch out for intellect

That intellect you deride gave you vaccines and a smart phone.

because it knows so much it knows nothing

That's a deepity. Can you give me an example of how knowing a lot on a subject makes that person stupid?