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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

The problem of Hell

41 replies

StonedRoses · 11/04/2019 10:15

I know this is an issue that has confused theologians, philosophers and thinkers for ages and I’m wondering if anyone has any pointers or advice.
I’m a liberal Anglican, and DW is an interested agnostic. A well meaning evangelical friend has really upset DW by telling her she prays every day she’ll find Jesus because she is so scared that DW will end up in Hell. She (friend) is really upset by this - DW is upset but bemused.

As a liberal Christian who believes that ultimately God is love I find the concept of condemning the majority of humanity to eternal torment very hard to get my head round. It’s not what I’d do to my kids as a loving father, even if they rejected me.

Friend is no doubt very sincere in her view and thinks she is helping. How do I get her to tactfully back off - and what do I say to DW to explain my own beliefs when I’m not even sure what they are!

It must be said that friend is very black/white and believes the bible is literally true, whereas I enjoy the doubt in my faith and grappling to understand things

OP posts:
Vitalogy · 18/04/2019 15:28

.

Vitalogy · 18/04/2019 15:35

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool - William Shakespeare

headinhands · 18/04/2019 16:11

The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool - William Shakespeare

You can't think of one then?

Vitalogy · 18/04/2019 16:48

You aren't going to get the answers unless you expand beyond your thinking,.

headinhands · 18/04/2019 18:37

I'm not going to get an answer until you stop talking piffle.

Vitalogy · 18/04/2019 18:44

Or until you stop talking. Smile

Madhairday · 18/04/2019 19:05

How mean is it though if the people that rejected it did so because there was no reason to believe it. What a cruel way to sort people into two groups. I don't mean to sound rude but it sounds like he prefers people who don't use their reasoning skills very well.

Not at all rude, it's a valid question.

However, the question assumes a certain standpoint about morality and particularly justice. If you're saying that God is not being fair to some people, you're making a statement about fairness: how do we judge what is fair and not fair, and where do we get the idea of fairness from? If there is no ultimate moral authority or designer of moral laws, how can we even postulate justice? For me, I believe in justice and fairness because I think that there is a set of morals we intrinsically understand (though don't always live by!), and that can only be because humanity is created with that programmed in.

So that's the start of my answer: to challenge the premise you ask from. The second thing I would say that it is evident that God gave humanity free will and that human autonomy is an integral part of who we are and how we are created. In that case, it would be morally unjust of God to force himself on us, simply because of the justice at the heart of God. So to make the evidence too in our face would be forcing us to worship, like a parent not allowing their child to leave home and see the world because they want to keep their child to themselves. Writing 'i am here' in the clouds would mean that we were forced into submission, and worship would not be from the place God desires - our free choice.

I think the evidence is abundant. In cosmology, in nature, in science, in music. In the way we love one another and the way we care for those in difficulties. And not least in the events in history which are backed by robust evidence; the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Without those this faith really would be based on floaty feelings: this grounds it in historical reality.

Wrt those who have not heard, heard in part or haven't understood, I believe that God is just - that God is justice and love combined, and therefore there will be no unfairness. In the end, it would be unfair to those who reject God to be forced to spend eternity with God, anyway. And God knows the true heart of people and responds to that.

I don't think there is any evidence of God's preference for the unintelligent or easily deluded. God's preference is for every single person who ever lived and ever will, but God will never force love from them.

headinhands · 21/04/2019 09:26

believe in justice and fairness because I think that there is a set of morals we intrinsically understand (though don't always live by!), and that can only be because humanity is created with that programmed in

Dogs have a sense of fairness that has been well studied. It's fascinating to read about if you haven't.

headinhands · 21/04/2019 09:33

So to make the evidence too in our face would be forcing us to worship

What about all the people that supposedly saw Jesus walk on water or saw the Red Sea being parted and so on? Also there will have been people who saw a miracle but didn't believe he was the son of god so they won't be forced into anything.

If free will is so precious why am I expected to prevent or stop an assault? Would god be angry with me if I stop someone doing what they have chosen to?

headinhands · 21/04/2019 09:34

And Happy Easter to all ❤️. Feeling virtuous because I'm on a diet and not eating chocolate. 😇

BattenburgIsland · 21/04/2019 09:35

I always thought of it as a metaphor about your choices effecting your life and your personality rather than a punishment to be afraid of...
If you dont choose to follow God it may be that you loose your way and make bad choices... and if those choices are very bad and hurt others it will end up hurting you.... you will live in a harsh world without trust or love and that is what 'Hell' is...

Lifecraft · 21/04/2019 15:24

Watch out for intellect

You are Michael Gove and I claim my £5.

OutwiththeOutCrowd · 22/04/2019 10:32

I think it’s important to look at the bible with an unflinching eye and accept that there are passages within it that suggest a grim afterlife for those who do not adhere to the idea of Jesus as divine saviour. While the New Testament isn’t internally consistent on the topic of hell and has its more tolerant moments in other areas, there are just too many references to hell for non-believers to ignore. If you try to filter this aspect of the bible out through laudable liberal intent, you will only agitate more conservative Christians who know it’s there and want you to at the very least acknowledge it.

So I think you have to accept the presence of these more difficult passages if you ever want to find reconciliation with those on the conservative wing of the Church.

You would still be free, as a progressive Christian, to reject the validity of the passages if you so wished. They were written by people who were deeply tribal in their mentality and, in my opinion, it’s perfectly legitimate for a Christian not to put their faith in absolutely every idea in the bible.

On a personal note, as an atheist, I’d also like to comment on this idea that non-believers are ‘rejecting’ God - as if they have spotted him but are intent on snubbing him so only have themselves to blame for whatever post-death fate befalls them.

To me it doesn’t feel like I’m rejecting anyone. If there were an overarching benevolent intelligence responsible for the creation of the universe, I’d rather be in contact with it than not. My mind is open to this possibility and I do not think that my sort of non-belief, shared by many others, could, or should, be considered worthy of punitive action.

Vitalogy · 22/04/2019 12:03

To me it doesn’t feel like I’m rejecting anyone. If there were an overarching benevolent intelligence responsible for the creation of the universe, I’d rather be in contact with it than not. My mind is open to this possibility and I do not think that my sort of non-belief, shared by many others, could, or should, be considered worthy of punitive action. I think you know It. Your posts are insightful.

Redpostbox · 28/04/2019 22:05

Hell is empty.

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