Do you believe in Divine Retribution?

[WellThisWasUnexpexted]

I live in a small community so I can't discuss this in RL. I've also namechanged.

Something awful has happed to someone (let's call this person A).

A does not have a great local reputation. A uses underhand methods to get what A wants. A tramples over people.

But something terrible has happened which is shocking and quite Biblical in context. I'm not going to say what it is as it is potentially triggering, and we are also talking about real people here.

I was a wavering agnostic but now I'm so shocked I'm open to the suggestion of the hand of God.

If you are a non-believer, please don't come on to say it's a coincidence or I'm being trivial/insensitive/ bad taste. I would like a discussion with believers about the concept of Divine Retribution across all faiths.

Thank you.

Unfortunately us humans usually stop trying to learn and understand things at quite an early age.

I know our brains are more absorbent at a younger age but most adults I know are still learning new things. An old relative just learnt how to use a mobile phone!

@headinhands

I agree with you.

The statement is a sweeping generalisation that upon investigation simply isn't true.
I have a friend mid fifties that has just achieved an MA.

However my point would be, that the poster believes this statement to be true, so in their mind it is a reality.

As in all beliefs, if you believe it to be true it becomes your reality. When in TRUTH it may not be.

As Buddha said " do not believe what I am telling you, go and find out for yourselves the Truth"

But as karma translates into quite a few religions, they can't all be wrong. It seems to be the world order.

There's nothing supernatural about it The reason this element is found in so many religions is because it's an observable reality. If I go around being horrible I won't have friends. If I go around being lovely I will have friends. The problem is people then make a leap and connect someone contracting cancer to the fact that they hit their wife as if something somewhere has dished out a punishment. But that something didn't stop a toddler getting cancer too. So it all falls down.

I'm going to twist this around then.

If I seek some low level revenge on someone, the type of stuff we fantasise about doing to our exes, such as spreading weetabix on their car windscreen of squirting prawn juice through their letter box- and I do it covertly so that I don't get caught.....

I know that I will have done this. Ex will probably know that I've done this but there's no proof to convict me.

What is holding me back from doing this is the sense of "tempting fate", that if I do a bad thing, then a bad thing will happen to me back.

What is holding me back from doing this is the sense of "tempting fate", that if I do a bad thing, then a bad thing will happen to me back

Hm, with me I probably wouldn't do that because I'd realise that in order to justify it to myself I have to accept that other people who feel I've upset them would have the right to do it to me. (And their reasoning may be flawed, but essentially they're using how hurt they are as a guide to determine if I deserve redress)

And in reality I might not be in the right frame of mind to pass judgment and decide on a punishment. If they've broken a law such as abuse then I would consider legal action. If they've cheated, then as angry as I'd be I'd have to chalk it up to life. Putting fish juice through their door is going to make them glad they're not with you, they won't be overcome with regret.

Absolutely, also it would be a very childish thing to do 

headinhands I didn't say it was supernatural though. I think you might be quoting me but speaking to others maybe?

I have been a Christian, I've been a Pagan... After that I just enjoyed studying different religions and seeing the various symbols and ideologies that crop in all of them. I like the history too. Don't really have a religion but I believe in some bits. Must make me agnostic?

The reason this element is found in so many religions is because it's an observable reality
The problem is people then make a leap and connect someone contracting cancer to the fact that they hit their wife as if something somewhere has dished out a punishment. But that something didn't stop a toddler getting cancer too. So it all falls down

Do you mean, when people start attributing big things like cancer to nasty actions, but then a toddler gets cancer, the karma principle falls down? Surely if it's an observable reality, it hasn't fallen down?

I think that sometimes people can be so inherently awful that this affects their health (This does not apply to the toddler part obvs). They lack positive thinking, they lack kindness. Surely this can affect someone's body on a chemical and hormonal level? A little bit like how when we interact with other humans, our serotonin levels increase (www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/11/071106124858.htm)
Maybe negative actions can in fact cause negative things to happen in the body, causing a bit of a circle and ultimately, perhaps, causing untold damage to our bodies. Rotting from the outside in if you will. Karma.

I also think that the stuff that doesn't seem to have a reason, things that are unfair like toddlers getting cancer are things we learn from. We learn things about ourselves, about love, about family, about courage and bravery, about perspective, about pain, all the things that make us human. I'm not saying some supernatural being sends these things to test us (that would be awful). But I think the positive things we learn out of negative situations make us good people. We pass on the good stuff to people and try and help others through it. Which ultimately results in a good karma returned to us. That person we helped will most likely help us later on wig something else we find difficult.

It's hard to articulate this 😂 but I'm hoping you get the jist.

@headinhands

The reason this element is found in so many religions is because it's an observable reality

There is an element of love in all religions. But love has no religion.
As with Karma, Karma has no religion.

One has to think deeply about these things

@wellthisisunexpected

What is holding me back from doing this is the sense of "tempting fate", that if I do a bad thing, then a bad thing will happen to me back

I think it is more likely that because you have been programmed and conditioned to think that "tempting fate" is a reality. When in fact it isn't.

Do you mean, when people start attributing big things like cancer to nasty actions, but then a toddler gets cancer, the karma principle falls down? Surely if it's an observable reality, it hasn't fallen down?

What I meant is the general reaping and sowing in terms of how nice you are to your fellow humans as an observable reality, but that the notion that god rewards and punishes people while on earth? Well for me, that falls down because toddlers and pedophiles are both getting cancer. But clearly that isn’t a problem for some people as they still feel that god sometimes redresses behaviour on this side of death. And I guess it’s how they marry up reality and this belief that’s so fascinating.

Rotting from the outside in if you will. Karma.

I just feel it’s dangerous to view it like that as there’s a risk of victim blaming, which is the main criticism of the just world theory, that somehow we ARE the masters of our fate. I mean sure, you would probably feel less upset if your abusive ex broke a leg than if your dear old nan did, but that would be a reflection of the hurt your ex had caused you. And I might even fleetingly have the phrase ‘just desserts’ in my head but no, in the cold light of day the universe isn’t redressing behaviour, it comes down to us humans to protect people and to counter harm where we see it.

Tragedy, illness, all sorts of terrible things can happen in one life, although these things can consume that one life, imagine if we had an unlimited number of lives, would we choose these different scenarios that are perceived bad or just pick easy lives every time.

The bible tells us that God “ maketh the sun to shine on the righteous and the unrighteous alike”.
When Jesus was asked about a tower that collapsed on some people, and whether that meant they were sinners being punished, he said that they were no more good or bad than anyone else. Basically, accidents happen.
We are all answerable to God for our crimes in this life. But the reckoning comes after death, not before.
If we are genuinely remorseful and ask Jesus to intercede for our forgiveness, then it will be granted.
But none of us are perfect, or good enough to gain entry to heaven on our own merit- we get there through Jesus, who atoned for the sins of all humanity for all time. If you want a financial analogy, we are all heavily overdrawn, but Jesus pays off all our debts - we have only to ask him to.

But I think the positive things we learn out of negative situations make us good people. We pass on the good stuff to people and try and help others through it. Which ultimately results in a good karma returned to us.

Yes, while I acknowledge that people learn from adverse situations, we can also learn through empathy, bad things aren’t necessary for the development of that attribute. We know from research that the life outcomes of children who face poverty, ill health etc etc are greatly affected which is why, as a society, we strive to eradicate these things as much as we have the power to do so. Put another way, I wouldn’t avoid a vaccine in the hope that catching the disease would teach me something!

I just feel a bit concerned when people extol the virtue of suffering. Yes it’s good to be able to look back and learn from our negative experiences but I flinch at the idea of acquiescing, or making it palatable by seeing it as ‘character building’. And I’m not talking about suffering as in letting your child forget their PE kit, I’m talking rape, abuse, starvation, disability, poverty, homelessness and so on.

would we choose these different scenarios that are perceived bad or just pick easy lives every time.

We can still appreciate other’s suffering without suffering that same experience ourselves. And besides, I can say that, of the people I know well enough to be able to know this, all of them have felt deep emotional pain. So yes I would choose to be born in the best set of circumstances. If you say otherwise I challenge you right now to sell everything and go and live in Kabul. No? Didn’t think so.

Unfortunately us humans usually stop trying to learn and understand things at quite an early age.

I know our brains are more absorbent at a younger age but most adults I know are still learning new things. An old relative just learnt how to use a mobile phone!

Sorry what has that got to do with my comment? Learning how to use a mobile phone as an older person is not comparable with trying to understand what happened in the Book of Job and how that applies to our world.

And I did not say older people are incapable of learning, I said young and old alike have stopped trying to learn.

@babdoc

We are all answerable to God for our crimes in this life. But the reckoning comes after death, not before.
If we are genuinely remorseful and ask Jesus to intercede for our forgiveness, then it will be granted

I'd like to see the evidence!

I was speaking to someone who had a thought. What happens if and when we die, we do actually get to meet god and god says to us, so what was heaven like?" Hypothetically where would divine retribution and karma be then?

And isn't it all hypothetical?

I think that sometimes people can be so inherently awful that this affects their health

I've never particularly noted bad people having more health problems myself. In fact getting all that spleen out seems to help some people live longer.

I have seen abused women get cancer to the point that I do think containing all that pain over a number of years undermines the health.

We can still appreciate other’s suffering without suffering that same experience ourselves Can we really, if we have never experienced some kind of loss or suffering.

So yes I would choose to be born in the best set of circumstances What ad infinitum, wouldn't you mix it up a bit

I challenge you right now to sell everything and go and live in Kabul. No? Didn’t think so. Looking at it from this one life then no, of course it'd be no but what if when we finish this life we get to look at all the lives we've lived, all at once, would it still be no.

Can we really, if we have never experienced some kind of loss or suffering.

Yep. I really can. And I know you can too. If I told you that a tree just fell over and destroyed half my house I think you could do a decent job of imagining how awful that is, you could empathise and think of ways to support me even if it had never happened to you.

What ad infinitum, wouldn't you mix it up a bit

I'd probably mix it up out the best options on offer. Like this life uk, next life Finland, life after Canada, might go for New Zealand at some point. I can't imagine I'm going to chose to be born an orphan with aids in Sierra Leone anytime soon, because I can imagine how hard that is, which is why I give to charity.

Yep. I really can. And I know you can too. Up to a certain point, but I don't believe a profound appreciation can developed until some kind of loss or suffering has happened to oneself.

I'd probably mix it up out the best options on offer. Like this life uk, next life Finland, life after Canada, might go for New Zealand at some point. The soul wouldn't develop or experience all of what being alive is though.

Plus you're looking at it from a materialistic/human perspective. Comfortable life/country.

No, I'm afraid not. Have you not of Hitler? I would like there to be karmic retribution though!

Up to a certain point, but I don't believe a profound appreciation can developed until some kind of loss or suffering has happened to oneself

Not having a profound appreciation doesn't prevent someone from caring for them. All you need is a well developed empathy.