Do you believe in Divine Retribution?

[WellThisWasUnexpexted]

I live in a small community so I can't discuss this in RL. I've also namechanged.

Something awful has happed to someone (let's call this person A).

A does not have a great local reputation. A uses underhand methods to get what A wants. A tramples over people.

But something terrible has happened which is shocking and quite Biblical in context. I'm not going to say what it is as it is potentially triggering, and we are also talking about real people here.

I was a wavering agnostic but now I'm so shocked I'm open to the suggestion of the hand of God.

If you are a non-believer, please don't come on to say it's a coincidence or I'm being trivial/insensitive/ bad taste. I would like a discussion with believers about the concept of Divine Retribution across all faiths.

Thank you.

we are also in the position of a cruel powerful mercurial being as it would seem to them. we do that according to some kind of wisdom.

It depends on the vengeance god dishes out. And I don't see letting a child feel the consequences of not remembering to take a pe bag as vengeance. That would make me sound nuts.

It's not good enough to say that the supposed divine being sometimes holds back till the next life. For one thing, it's clearly no punishment if the new reincarnation has no idea why they are going through hell. And for another, it doesn't account for all the totally innocent people who may get caught up in the carnage.

So sometimes he does exact judgement in this life? Can you give me an example of what that might look like?

I don't claim to know Gods mind, I'm the clay and not the potter, remember.

But possibly a good example of some sort of judgment would be God's direction for a type of judicial system, similar to that of the modern day. So, for example, if you break a commandment like 'don't steal' then you have consequences. A punishment to fit the crime. A type of judgement. Who knows whether that's an end of it for God or whether it's a taster? I'm not his judge; he's mine. It's up to him and not really my business.

But remember I said judgment is only half of the story. God is full of love towards us, so much so that he offers undeserved mercy. All we have to do it take it. Not everyone is prepared to do that though. Are you?

if the new reincarnation has no idea why they are going through hell. The soul will know, it'll be gathering all these experiences.

Very interesting discussions, thank you.

similar to that of the modern day. So, for example, if you break a commandment like 'don't steal' then you have consequences.

The problem with this is that as we've spoken about on here good things happen to 'not good' people and bad things happen to lovely people.

So if something bad happens to someone how are they/we to know if it's divine justice or just one of those things? I'm trying to imagine if the courts worked in the same way where no one knew if their fine was a judgement or just brush it off as bad luck?

It doesn't seem to work very well and is wide open to misinterpretation which is why it would be better if god just sat down and spoke to people instead of employing vague punishments that can easily be attributed to a random universe.

If Sweeney Todd had a son who was eating a pie whilst stepping out into a road without looking - and is hit by a bus and dies - is this Karma, coincidence or irony?

Neither. It's just what is happening. The fact that he is related to Sweeny Todd is coincidence.

typically, talking of God as Father is blasphemy in islam, but using the example of the parent-child relationship is common in describing the utter short term thinking and cluelessness of humans to the very long far ranging wisdom of God.

compare the child whose parents allow them to make mistakes, feel (controlled) disappointments, the occasional thwarted desires, get messy/dirty, range outdoors and exposed to the physical world,

to the child whose parents wrap them up in cotton wool, protect them from every niggle, grant them every toy their heart desires, give them anything they want to eat, etc.

which child will turn out into the more resilient adult? the charlie bucket or the augustus gloops? which one can better cope with the free will of others? be more altruistic? who can be the more cooperative person in a group/ neighbourhood/ at work? (of course this depends on what values one considers important in the first place!)

in Islam there is a strong belief that the best people have the most difficult things happen to them. even that, maybe because they had those difficult things happen to them, they become the best people.

so even the sinner can get comfort that a trial befallen on them is not a divine retribution, but the exposed vulnerability a chance at guidance and turning back.( if they wish to take it that way. with some people it emboldens them to oppress more, like the ghaddafis and the saddam husseins and the bashir assads of the world. but then they were likely the augustus gloop children of their families in the first place).

such platitudes are always said when people fall ill, suffer a bereavement, lose a job, etc to help people accept what happens - God must lurvvvvvvee you so much etc- and commit to moving forward, quicker.

so even the sinner can get comfort that a trial befallen on them is not a divine retribution,

This analogy only works when we’re talking about a very logical consequence such as someone getting a fine for speeding and so on. What about the man who regularly hits his wife who breaks a leg? How is he to know god’s used that as a ‘chance at guidance’ (yuck). And then you have a lovely person who gets cancer? Are they to assume somehow they’ve upset god? It’s just too vague and cruel.

As I said before if I was disappointed with one of my children I would be direct, I wouldn’t orchestrate some unrelated problem and just hope they’d get the message. And neither would I have any right to be surprised when they didn’t make the connection.

I mean isn’t this all the very definition of passive aggression? Say I’m upset with my husband because he forgot to put the bin out on his way out so rather than just letting him know I was disappointed and it had caused problem I decided to hide his credit card or something?

Thank you Triplejeopardy, that was a good message to start the day with.

But if you wanted your DH to learn his lesson about the bin, you'd do something related to it (ie put his dinner in it) rather than do something unrelated and hope he connects the two together (unlikely).

But if you wanted your DH to learn his lesson about the bin, you'd do something related to it (ie put his dinner in it) rather than do something unrelated and hope he connects the two together (unlikely).

I'd probably prefer to talk about it but putting it in the bin is at least related. Whereas there's not often a logical connection when bad things happen to bad people such as someone whose having an affair losing his wallet. Because good people are losing their wallets all the time so a logical person wouldn't make the connection. And even if they were inclined to magical thinking the person having the affair may well see the random good things happening to them as a sign that the universe is happy for them or some such interpretation?

"How is he to know god’s used that as a ‘chance at guidance’ (yuck). And then you have a lovely person who gets cancer? Are they to assume somehow they’ve upset god? It’s just too vague and cruel. "

well in islam there are so many stories of prophets and saints and holy men/women afflicted with various sicknesses, ailments, disasters, that 'bad things happening' are rather seen as a badges of honour to them, rather than of dishonour. certainly not divine retribution. or signs of God forsaking them. and muslims, amongst each other, say this to one another also. and these beliefs are very far away from the idea of karma, or the ideas of what goes around comes around. and if it had been that way, the Quran would not have shied away from it.

it could easily have had the idea of karma and what goes around comes around. nothing bad happens to people except that they are bad. its actually far more logical than thinking something bad happened to you because you are a good person.

the second takes some mental gymnastics. and also gives to a sufferer shielding from the eyes of those around them looking upon them with blame and reproachment.that they deserved their suffering.

a very generous God allows us to say 'God's will' when we dont know the cause. "In order that you not despair over what has eluded you..." (Quran 57:23). once you know the laws of physics for why a building crashed down that day, or the relationship between certain chemicals and human biology causing defects or cancer, it becomes something explainable. God is not going to withhold the laws of nature or gravity so that you can eat poison or jump off a building without harm. but we accede to cause and affect, and work around it, work to overcome it, or avoid it. in that too, is God's will, and submission and acceptance to God's will.

as to passive aggressive or obliqueness. that reminds me of some arguments i can have with my 5 year old. they're not going to understand the logic of delayed gratification, or why people need money 'why cant everything just be free?'.

tbh even to compare humans to God as a five year old to an adult is too generous to humans. we are rather like infants in trying to understand the mind of God. cruel, capricious, mercurial, unpredictable, might be what a toddler calls his mum if she has the language, to describe his mothers actions that are done to ensure good child development.

or the relationship between certain chemicals and human biology causing defects or cancer, it becomes something explainable. God is not going to withhold the laws of nature or gravity so that you can eat poison or jump off a building without harm

Yeah but not all bad events are traced back to a poor choice are they? Like the baby with leukaemia? This way of looking at it only works when someone causes something bad to happen to themselves.

rather like infants in trying to understand the mind of God.

But infants learn relatively quickly. And why would god make beings he wants to understand that can't understand him because of how he made them? It's a bit silly really.

alot of the times its unintended consequences. thalidomide was a great reliever of morning sickness in pregnant women until they found it led to birth defects in their children. until people figured out that link the more religious would have quietly sighed 'God's Will', the ones believing in reincarnation or karma might have thought that the child had done some sin in its past life to be born so. when people figured out why babies were born that way they stopped prescribing it quickly.

its taken us alot longer to figure out about babies born with leukaemia. do you know that overall rate of adult cancers is decreasing but childhood cancers are increasing? and leading experts in paediatric oncology say the 'fast' rise of these cancers including leukaemia are very likely due to environmental reasons? not poor choices, but chemicals in the water, soils, on crops. etc.

yesterday in the papers they talked of the definitive proof between adhd and autism in children and the organophosphates sprayed on crops. that there is now a call to ban the entire pesticide class rather than just a few because of its harm to children. now knowing that there is an answer, its a relief, we understand the world better. can employ some measure of control ourselves now to prevent such occurences.

(also, hello to coyoacan. sunset time here!)

very likely due to environmental reasons?

I'm not sure what childhood diseases have to do with divine retribution? Unless god gave one to a child to also hurt the parent?

@Triplejeopardy You've raised some very interesting concepts. But I don't get how if A is a corrupt and unethical person, then he suffers a huge personal loss, how does that translate to him being loved so very very much by God?

Going back to Just World Theory and "an eye for an eye" etc - doesn't that indicate that the punishment should fit the crime? Which makes me question whether A did more things than we publicly know about, it has God deliberately made him a shadow of his former self?

I appreciate that I'm probably talking in riddles and I don't make sense. I also have muddled thoughts about this too, so be patient with me.

Which makes me question whether A did more things than we publicly know about, it has

Which reveals your own just world bias in action.

IMO, good people have shitty things happen to them and bad people have shitty things happen to them.

The good people don't deserve it but usually learn something from it and use it later on to help others through similar turmoil.

The bad people deserve it and don't learn. They don't help others after.

Karma translates into many religions. For example, Wiccanism/Paganism has the rule of three - Whatever you dish out, you get back three fold. Christianity has something similar - you reap what you sow.

I haven't studied many Abrahamic religions though I know Christianty reasonably well. But as karma translates into quite a few religions, they can't all be wrong. It seems to be the world order.

Consequently, I'm not sure if it's divine intervention. I think the universe does a good job of balancing itself out on it's own. But I like the idea of it.

Other things would convince me of divinity. I have had a couple of personal experiences that definitely make me think there's something there. But not in regards to karma. For me that's just the way the world works

Exactly, especially as I'd never seen the Theory when I wrote my OP.

But infants learn relatively quickly. And why would god make beings he wants to understand that can't understand him because of how he made them? It's a bit silly really

Unfortunately us humans usually stop trying to learn and understand things at quite an early age. A friend once had a poster that said everything they needed to know they had learnt in kindergarden, which is really, really sad. Muslims are exhorted to study and learn every day.

My mother was not a saint, but good and kind person. She suffered horrifically with cancer. The idea that bad things only happen to bad people is odious.

The only place in the whole of the universe that divine retribution exists is in the mind of a human being that believes it exists. If a human being doesn't believe it exists then it doesn't exist.