I want to question religion/belief/faith and God but think it's going to upset someone.

[bramblina]

Why should it? Why do I feel like this? I can surely ask questions? I don't know anyone in RL who wouldn't be offended and so that frustrates me.

I just find it a bit frustrating that in this day and age people still believe that a person whom they call God can solve problems and answer questions. Perhaps he did exist one day but we know nowadays the difference between fact and fiction. Water is wet and fire is hot. Closing ones eyes and either asking aloud or in your head for help with a problem or guidance or whatever, no one, person, character or anything else is going to answer. If one "hears" an answer or receives guidance or strength it's simply from their own perception. "God" did not do anything to help.
I just don't get why folk still believe this.
"God" is not great- perhaps one day he was but nobody can live forever. He doesn't have a plan for anyone. If he can "look down" on us does that mean he can see us on the toilet? Having sex? If it were true why is there so much wrong in the world? Why does religion cause so many problems and such division?

Have you done much research yourself? Not just looking on humanist or anti religious sites but Christian ones too. You could go to a church (with an open mind) and sit through a few services, talk to a vicar or go along to an Alpha course (the whole thing)?

Indeed, or one of the many other religions/belief systems too?

I'm just wondering what the OP thought the vicar's wife should be wearing? A flowery dress and a hat? I still get odd looks when people realise I'm a vicar and a woman.

If you want to debate with Christians then why not go over to a site like Ship of Fools where you will Christians, agnostics and some atheists who are up for discussion. There are lots of different traditions and I've learnt a great deal about RC, Orthodox and some of the European Protestant churches by talking to people on that site.

This thread looks interesting forums.shipoffools.com/discussion/559/when-they-say-theyre-atheists-when-they-say-theyre-christians#latest

A great book exploring the origins of religions and how they evolved is 'Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon' by Daniel Dennett. Helps to explain why people believe in the first place.

It's difficult to see by looking at the current world, because if god was a concept which someone suddenly came up with now, nobody (or at least very few) people would believe it was true. But when you look at how belief in various things was beneficial in an evolutionary sense, it makes it much more understandable how we got to the position we are in today.

From reading previous posts, it's interesting that it's fine for atheists to foist their views on to people but not ok for Christians to even mention God in a sentence!

Can you explain what you mean? Atheists don't have 'views', they just aren't convinced by the assertion that a god exists.

Atheism means no belief in God. A Theist.

Not convinced means you’re agnostic.

I don’t foist my views, I will give them when they are sought.

bramblina, I think you already know the answers. Theists are not interested in true answers. Only answers that confirm their beliefs.

Thank you for all your replied.
Scottishdiem, I see what you are saying but believing a "god" can solve your problems is not the same as liking heavy metal or modern art.....heavy metal and modern art are physical things, and we can like them or loathe them but it's not the same. I don't "get" a lot of very modern art but I appreciate that some people like it enough to pay lots of money for and hang it on their wall but that's not the same in believing that someone answers your prayers. Heavy metal is a noise, it appeals to some through the physical vibration and it makes others uncomfortable but it's not the same as closing your eyes before a meal and thanking a fictitious being. Or, I appreciate that perhaps once a person did exist who was worshipped but they nonlonger live.
My teapot, maybe one day thank you.
Looneytunes this is what I mean!! Having faith will not "make" anything happen. Things happen because of other reasons but faith does not make them happen. God did not create any child- an egg and a sperm makes a child and that is that. People do not pass their exams because of faith- they pass them because they have the knowledge.
Pickle, it does affect me and a lot of people in the world- I do live in a relatively religious place although I don't put myself in a position where it can be preached to me but I do get visits from Jehovah Witnesses- I have more time on my hands these days so I think I will ask sone questions next time they cone round. Think of the terrorist attacks that have been made in the name of Allah!! People- children, babies, innocent people are dead because of the brainwashing that goes on and it's horrific.
Wilding yes me too. It is utter control. I have a friend who ferries her 6 children off to church every weekend to hear stories about how God is so wonderful and yet I just think why can't you just stay at home and play games, read books, bake, be nice. One of the kids has an eating disorder, one is receiving counselling for having been groomed by a high school student, one has learning difficulties and 2 have attention issues. They're so busy worshipping god that she and her husband don't have time to for the children and that makes me sad.
Blue Java I guess that's why I'm asking on mn and not any of my local church goers!!
Bobstersmum, because you're laying the responsibility of your problems coming good with "faith" instead of the real reason they came good. You know yourself surely why your problems were solved and it wasn't because you prayed.
Patriarchy yes discussion is amazing and I love it. Especially when someone can help in serious decision making like whether to upgrade the car or to extend the house....but my point in this is that God does not exist and miracles do not happen because of him and yet people still believe it. You can convince someone who was unsure that water is wet and fire is hot because it is true but religion, god, etc, it's fictitious. So the discussion is baffling.
My teapot yes isn't it....but there's a clear difference between fact and fiction.
60sname there's no need to speak on my behalf, I am having a discussion. But what is there to discuss between fact and fiction????
And so patriarchy is right but again it's not a "what's best?" or "what should I do?" situation, it's fiction which people still believe is controlling the world and killing people, why can't they see that?
Green- I'm frustrated not upset. But yes, sort of. It's similar to the flat earth society. Folk laugh at them because we know it's round. Shall we laugh at the religious because we know it's all in their mind??
Madhair yes I am asking why people still believe that God can sort out problems etc when we are civilised enough to know that he can't. I love a discussion about something I know nothing about, or for example I dislike and I love to hear another's view on it and always have respect for their views and then sometimes I may change my opinion of it....sushi was the last thing I could give you an example of. But I'm going back to it- fact and fiction- there's no denying it.
Daffodil, why? I know God doesn't exist. I know I can only lose weight if I stop eating crap. I know I can only save money if I stop spending. I know my car will only be fixed if I take it to the garage and I know my husband wI'll only come home safe this weekend if he takes care and everything goes right- certainly none of that would all come good because God is watching over me. Simple.
Daffodil, no! It is a discussion. But more I suppose about fact or fiction. No? Are you saying God exists? Do you believe he/she/it does?
Womaningreen where did I say I was surprised the minister's wife was wearing jeans? I said she's breaking the pre conceived idea! Oh maybe it was my exclamation mark. Well where I live she's the first minister's wife who is allowed to wear trousers, for a start. And so another discussion could begin....What's that all about?? Why can't girls wear jeans in the free church?! Now you can't say that's not ridiculous??

Oh I didn't see the second page and have run out of time to answer but must say walkingdead yes that's the problem. But again there is fact and fiction and a clear difference which they can't see.

I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can vote conservative or support the royal family.

I do however recognise that’s a bit of an immature attitude and that not everyone thinks the same as me. Not sure how this is different, you disagree with them but you’re not going to change their minds.

I do know plenty of religious people who have read Dawkins and thought through the meaning of their religion in the context of atheism and other schools of thought. I wouldn’t assume they are all stupid just because they don’t think the same as you do.

I may be wrong but I think girls can wear jeans to church?!

Slipperyeel but that's not the same- the conservative party are real, they exist and they have some policies which I'm guessing you have actual opinions on- because they are facts. The royal family are real people. The country I'm sure would survive without them. Apparently they bring in more money (via tourists etc) than they cost us but they are there and they exist- these are facts. I'm not assuming "anyone is stupid because they don't think the same as me" I am stating that some people can't see the difference between fact and fiction and that I find baffling. And other emotions. But real emotions based on fact.

*I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone can vote conservative or support the royal family.

I do however recognise that’s a bit of an immature attitude and that not everyone thinks the same as me.*

That's not really the same thing. Each political party has a manifesto you can read, has people you can observe and makes decisions you can see the outcome from. This allows you to make an informed choice between two options.

When it comes to belief in the supernatural, it is evidence and reason versus faith (belief without evidence). This isn't an informed choice between two options. This is one of the options being, "I'm just going to believe this stuff because I want to".

To the skeptic, taking this kind of position is ludicrous.

I am stating that some people can't see the difference between fact and fiction

I actually don't think this is problem. For all we know, there could be a god. The issue is that people are unable to recognise what constitutes real evidence for something.

"I am stating that some people can't see the difference between fact and fiction and that I find baffling"

But humans do that all the time. Religion is no worse than other things people get all interested in and believe. People live their lives according to their horoscope. People believe that homeopathy works to the detriment of their own health. People dont believe in climate change. People believe that immigrants are both stealing jobs and claiming welfare. Vast swathes of AIBU dont realise the problem they have with black women and understanding white privilege.

There is lots about other human beings that baffle other human beings. It only becomes a problem when baffling things are foisted on one group by other.

But humans do that all the time. Religion is no worse than other things people get all interested in and believe.

I would agree with this.

People live their lives according to their horoscope.

This is people believing something is true without sufficient evidence and can lead to poor decision making and sometimes detrimental actions.

People believe that homeopathy works to the detriment of their own health.

This is people believing something is true without sufficient evidence and can lead to poor decision making and sometimes detrimental actions.

People dont believe in climate change.

This is people believing something is true without sufficient evidence and can lead to poor decision making and sometimes detrimental actions.

People believe that immigrants are both stealing jobs and claiming welfare.

This is people believing something is true without sufficient evidence and can lead to poor decision making and sometimes detrimental actions.

Vast swathes of AIBU dont realise the problem they have with black women and understanding white privilege.

This is people believing something is true without sufficient evidence and can lead to poor decision making and sometimes detrimental actions.

There is lots about other human beings that baffle other human beings.

I think it's perfectly ok for me to be baffled when people just believe all kinds of nonsense without any rational thought.

It only becomes a problem when baffling things are foisted on one group by other.

No, it becomes a problem when people take actions because of the rubbish they believe which ultimately causes some kind of detriment to themselves or to other people. All of your examples above can lead to harm to others of some sort and religion is no different. And there is no "foisting" required for that to happen.

But there is fact and fiction, people. And that is my point. Fact. Actual real true stuff. Things, movements, land, jobs, pencils, whatever. And then there is fiction- stories, fairies, supernatural, ouija, clairvoyants, god, bullshit, nonsense, not true. You know?????

And my point is- why can sensible people not see this????

I believe in God.

What is god like then, to you?

why can sensible people not see this????

Give your definition of sensible. Otherwise normal humans are capable of believing complete mince.

Also:

Rutgers University evolutionary biologist Lionel Tiger said this: “Religion is really made by the brain. It is a secretion of the brain,” says Tiger, who thinks the root of religious belief is an evolutionary drive to seek this "secretion"—namely serotonin—which provides the believer with feelings of well-being. A neurotransmitter that regulates mood and appetite, serotonin is linked to feelings of well-being when it floods the central nervous system.

“One of the ways of looking at religion is to what extent and how does it generate the serotonergic juices that make us feel good,” says Tiger. Attending a religious service, for example, can be a flurry of social activity and controlled procedure, which releases a cocktail of serotonin-led neurotransmitters in the brain. This chemical response “soothes” the organ, he says, echoing the results of recent studies. Working with neuroscientist Michael McGuire, Tiger has connected this research on serotonin as it works in the brain with the social aspects and origins of religion.

“Religion may be one of the main producers of the brain-soothing phenomenon in a way that is not that expensive or destructive or difficult. All you have to do is show up Sunday morning,” Tiger says. Religion, in this sense, becomes a self-created, self-consumed endeavor, he adds.

I speak to people about faith all the time and I get asked some fabulous, challenging, cynical and bloody difficult questions!
These discussions are often with young people but not always.
I am a scientist through and through (taught for years) and am a deep thinker. I’m also now a vicar married to a non-believer.

Your OP doesn’t sound like the invitation to a discussion. If you asked me why I can’t see fact from fiction then you are not inviting a discussion but for me to defend my faith. My faith has questions (by the very nature that it is faith) but wouldn’t be rocked by your ‘fact/fiction/ it’s 2018/be sensible’ argument. However, I’ve studied theology to a very high level and I welcome proper debate and diversity.
My husband and I have great discussions but we don’t sneer at each other or say the other is wrong - it’s more subjective than that.

Eatrepeat I hope you don’t mind me asking, but as a woman how do you accept the history of women as secondary to men throughout the history of the church?

How can something supposedly so right get this so very wrong? I just couldn’t swallow that part any longer or the resistance to fully being ok with homosexuality.

Also, Christianity should have been leading the way for equality, love and justice in this country, not following reluctantly behind.
I understand the historical context and that it was important for Jesus to fulfil the scriptures, but then he did at the same time try to move past them, but in reality the church went straight back to pre jesus practice, with wealth and power amassed, rigid adherence to laws and brutal punishments.
Don’t you think there needs to be a fresh new start where women are properly equal and there is no need to try and follow archaic rules?

Briefly because today is a working day.

Equality for women is very recent and in some areas work in progress. It is only 100 years since women first got the vote. When the campaign for women bishops stalled back in2012 one wise and elderly man in one of my congregation pointed out that when he was young women couldn't be doctors and that the change would come. This month the third most senior bishop in the C of E is a woman. Change comes slowly to institutions and I can influence that change from within much more effectively than I can from without.

There are a lot of gay and lesbian priests in the C ofE. I'd have to ask but I suspect that they are working for change in the same way that I am. It is slow but we will get there.

But if this equality is the morally better way of living, then why didn't god convey that message 2000+ years ago when the population needed to be told?