I want to question religion/belief/faith and God but think it's going to upset someone.

[bramblina]

Why should it? Why do I feel like this? I can surely ask questions? I don't know anyone in RL who wouldn't be offended and so that frustrates me.

I just find it a bit frustrating that in this day and age people still believe that a person whom they call God can solve problems and answer questions. Perhaps he did exist one day but we know nowadays the difference between fact and fiction. Water is wet and fire is hot. Closing ones eyes and either asking aloud or in your head for help with a problem or guidance or whatever, no one, person, character or anything else is going to answer. If one "hears" an answer or receives guidance or strength it's simply from their own perception. "God" did not do anything to help.
I just don't get why folk still believe this.
"God" is not great- perhaps one day he was but nobody can live forever. He doesn't have a plan for anyone. If he can "look down" on us does that mean he can see us on the toilet? Having sex? If it were true why is there so much wrong in the world? Why does religion cause so many problems and such division?

Quite.

The church should lead the way for morality not be chained to ancient culture. It took 2000 years for women to even be allowed as bishops!! This is absolutely outrageous and simply shows that the church was and has always been simply a reflection of society/politics and not morality. Do you think men are superior to women and more holy? Why sign up to a doctrine that has said that in its entire existence? Women are the moral ones and men need to learn from us, instead the church was at the forefront of oppressing women, after all no one can argue with god. And it’s still going on in religion.
Sorry but I’m so so angry about this. If god is here ‘he’ grrrrrr is here right now not worrying about crap written down 2000 + years ago. Maybe if we hadn’t had religion women could have felt ok about fighting for their rights instead of being brainwashed into believing men are to be obeyed.

When the campaign for women bishops stalled back in2012 one wise and elderly man in one of my congregation pointed out that when he was young women couldn't be doctors and that the change would come.

It should have come from the church years ago. It’s like Jesus never even said what he said! Stalled in 2012, what a joke, some holy leaders didn’t actually think women could lead 6 years ago and probably still don’t. I mean, think about it, is that actually acceptable in any way?

Of course there are gay priests but the AofC said gay sex is not ok and it’s definitely not allowed in some denominations. There is still grappling with scripture. As soon as you try and match morality to outdated religious laws you’re onto a loser. They need shaking off, properly, not brushing under the carpet.

You say you’re working from the inside, well great I hope you’re pushing to the very top and questioning absolutely everything that is archaic,immoral and sexist in the church.

Your answer left me very dissatisfied I’m afraid. You need to take these issues head on and cricitise the church. Until you do that you’re complicit.

0hCrepe

I think the church has changed a lot over the past few years and although there are things I still find difficult, when I was ordained I felt it was right and feel as a woman in the institution of the church that I am respected and able to flourish. Frustratingly change comes slowly but as a fairly young educated woman in the church I am hopefully a great advocate for others who are wondering about their place in the church.
With regard to homosexuality, I have 3 very good gay priest friends in the CofE and the church world I inhabit is more open minded and liberal than most people would expect. The church won’t marry same sex couples at the moment but again this change may come and hearing and listening to the voices of gay church leaders is so important for the future of our church.

I think the church has changed a lot over the past few years

Some churches might have, but the world-over, this is not the case.

Frustratingly change comes slowly

That's what happens in an environment which is resistant to change and wedded to ancient texts. Mostly because you need to have someone work out how they can interpret the texts differently in order to support the new direction they want to take.

With regard to homosexuality, I have 3 very good gay priest friends in the CofE and the church world I inhabit is more open minded and liberal than most people would expect.

Anecdotes are great, but this doesn't demonstrate a change in the church in general.

The church won’t marry same sex couples at the moment

I really don't think this is a problem. It's not like the church has a monopoly on weddings. I fully support same sex couples in finding a non-religious way of celebrating their marriages. The church can keep their antiquated views.

WiseOld
I was replying to a question from another PP which gives some context to my comments. Whilst I’m happy for you to pull apart my post and ‘anecdotes’, please realise that I am not saying the church is without issues but I can only give an answer from my situation and perspective.
There has always been diversity within the church and even in the earliest days there were divisions and differing theology and interpretation.

I disagree with you about same sex marriage though. It may mean nothing to you as many other venues can hold a wddding, but for the many LGBT Christians who would love a church wedding I think moving towards marriage equality in church is hugely significant.

@greenheart I love Ship of Fools. I am not Christian and I know several others who love it too. Sensible, intelligent, and not afraid to make fun of some of the more ridiculous parts of religion.

@eatrepeat This year the Kirk in Scotland is celebrating 50 years of women ministers, as well as several female Moderators in the past few years. In 2013, parishes were allowed to choose gay ministers (appointments always lie with the parish), and ministers and deacons were allowed to enter into same sex marriages in 2016. This year the Kirk joined the Episcopal Church in accepting religious same-sex marriages. It has changed from being an oppressive part of society to a voice of liberal conscience for all of the nation. A religious establishment that does not change with its people while taking into account the tenets of belief will fade and die.

I should have said above that this month the Kirk has voted to allow ministers to conduct and celebrate same-sex marriages; it will take some time for church law to be changed.

The church can try and be radical, as it should. However, it is made up of people, and people generally resist change. The cHurch also resists schism- it tries to move ahead by consensus. That means it takes longer than a small group of people deciding what should happen and acting upon it.

In particular, some countries are nowhere near ready to accept gay relationships. That has really slowed down progress in the Anglican church, as it doesn't want to split from a huge chunk of itself.

The movement of gay rights has been incredibly fast in western culture. From illegal to celebrated within one generation. It's unsurprising that an institution is slower in adapting.

The movement of gay rights has been incredibly fast in western culture. From illegal to celebrated within one generation. It's unsurprising that an institution is slower in adapting.

Except that virtually every other institution in the western world has adapted just fine. The reason religions struggle is that they are held to dogmatic scripture which can't be changed.

Just read some of the posts on here, not got all the way through.
What I can see is a common pattern of atheists making a simplistic straw man of religion which they can knock down, whilst simultaneously giving themselves a pat on the back and applauding themselves on their own intellectual superiority.
Things like “it’s 2018, just be nice” - after thousands of years it’s as if we have now the pinnacle of human wisdom in this line.
Since when have humans ever been able to just be nice? Do you think all human behaviour can be reduced down to “be nice”.
The prevailing attitude that religious people are deluded and a bit dumb, that they are in need of your “enlightenment” is tedious, believe me we don’t need your patronising.

What I can see is a common pattern of atheists making a simplistic straw man of religion which they can knock down, whilst simultaneously giving themselves a pat on the back and applauding themselves on their own intellectual superiority.

Oh look, a straw man!

Things like “it’s 2018, just be nice” - after thousands of years it’s as if we have now the pinnacle of human wisdom in this line.

Not at all, but when an organised religion fails to align with the vast majority of modern moral thinking and ties itself to outdated ideas passed through scripture, I tend to take issue.

The prevailing attitude that religious people are deluded and a bit dumb, that they are in need of your “enlightenment” is tedious, believe me we don’t need your patronising.

I don't believe that religious people are dumb. There are dumb people in any demographic you might choose to review. But I do think that religious reasons behind religious ideas are dumb, misguided, irrational and occasionally dangerous.

It's unsurprising that an institution is slower in adapting.

Yes. If you reject the notion that the individuals in that institution are in 24hr contact with an all powerful god who is supposedly full of love and communicates with his followers daily.

If they are in fact in touch with such a deity he's spectacularly crap at mobilising a group of people that should actually be at the forefront of developing human rights by a long way.

As it is, they are being forcibly dragged along like a petulant toddler.

Oh look another one with seemingly no understanding of the vast contributions of Christianity to our culture and living standards- here’s a reminder of some-

Orphanages, universities, welfare, ending of child labour , ie in the mines, hospitals, contribution to legal systems, language, ending of patria potestas- ability of a man to kill his wife/children under roman law, ending of pedastry in Greek and roman cultures, the huge influence of Jewsish/Christian value system.,.. but hey guess that counts for nothing.

People are as entitled to believe in god as much as you are entitled not to believe in god.

People are as entitled to believe in god as much as you are entitled not to believe in god.

Entitled, yes. But that doesn't make them right or rational in their belief. Generally these discussions are not about someone's right to belief but more about whether their beliefs are true or reasonable.