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Original poster

Is the following story in the BIble or did I dream this? Or read it somewhere else?

49 replies

QuiQuaiQuod · 11/05/2018 12:56

Cant find it anywhere, so sure it was in the old testament in Genesis but cant see it now:

about a man whos concubine or wife or daughter was gang raped and left for dead in a doorway? and he actually 'gave' the girl to the men to do just that?

(about to run out of credtit, on a PAYG so if I get replies and don't answer straight away you'll know why. thanks)

OP posts:

yellowplumpreserves · 11/05/2018 13:01

It's at the end of the book of Judges. It's supposed to be shocking coming at a time when society in Israel was terrible and everyone did whatever they liked. IIRC the incident led to a sort of civil war.

Jaytee38 · 12/05/2018 17:52

I think this is the bit you've read. It's one of the hardest bits to read

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.biblegateway.com/passage/%3fsearch=Judges+19&version=NIV&interface=amp

AdaTwist · 12/05/2018 18:01

That is heartbreaking.

It looks like the following chapter has God causing the Israelites getting vengeance in battle because such a terrible thing was fine to this woman, so at least it is clear that this was appalling behaviour.

I hate that the response of a man to people wanting to rape a man is to send two females instead. I guess this is not necessarily endorsed as the right thing to do (though I think a similar thing happens in Genesis and it is the right thing to do - perhaps in the genesis case because it is about protecting visitors at the expense of your own daughters). God didn't tell them to send the women instead I mean.

I do struggle with this whole issue though, it upsets me a lot.

Original poster

QuiQuaiQuod · 12/05/2018 20:20

Thats the one. yes, thank you.

I know, its awful that its been happening since the beginning of time, and I struggle with the fact that God allowed it and still does.

Thank you for finding it for me.

OP posts:

Jaytee38 · 12/05/2018 21:54

It's one of the hardest things I've read in the bible. God did change the law to protect women as much as could be in that civilization.

Basically if the rapist was caught he was forced to marry the woman. No I know that sounds awful. However it protected a woman in that society. Firstly it stopped her family punishing the victim from the "shame she brought on them. It meant the man had to pay a proper dowry for the woman. The woman was able to have a family. The opposite of that was a life in prostitution to provide for herself.
It also gave her a status which in that society really mattered.

God doesn't allow rspe. Theirs sin in the world. Due to this a man will chose to take a woman. His choice and something he could have chosen not to do.

Please don't think I'm down playing rape I think it heinous.
I read a book recently that looked into women and the law ( in the bible). If you're interested I can try to find the title for you .

Jaytee38 · 12/05/2018 21:56

Yes Adatwist I think the bit you're thinking of is with Lot inside Sodomm and Gammorah and he offers his daughters

infertilitybitch · 12/05/2018 21:59

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marry-your-rapist_law

Very sad

BlackeyedSusan · 14/05/2018 00:13

I think the marry your rapist was a preventative before the act attempt to show the bloke that they would not get away with using a women and dumping her to a life of prostitution or being murdered in an honour killing.

crap for the women though. was not supposed to be like that, it was supposed to be equality, and marriage for love.

non of the people in the bible are perfect, nearly all of the did the wrong thing along the way, many of them really really fuck it up, but god uses them anyway.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 14/05/2018 09:54

Wow, I can't believe that someone could be so driven to ensure that the sanctity of the Bible and their god is maintained that they would even begin to justify the act of forcing a woman to spend the rest of her life with the man who raped her.

Original poster

QuiQuaiQuod · 15/05/2018 10:16

wise this is why I struggle with my faith.

I know God gave man (as in man and woman) a will and the capacity to choose , but still, to actually allow it.....

Even if there is retribution, it shouldn't happen in the first place (and I speak as a victim of rape).

OP posts:

MarthaArthur · 15/05/2018 10:23

So you dont agree with free will? Free will is just that. God gave free will so his people were not mindless slaves. Sometimes people are evil.

It also reflects on society of the time over 2000 years ago. The bible is a book of moral stories not a book of fact and law.

MarthaArthur · 15/05/2018 10:24

Sorry to hear your story op. What made you think of this today can i ask? Its good you are able to speak about it.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 15/05/2018 10:35

I know God gave man (as in man and woman) a will and the capacity to choose

How do you know this?

Even if there is retribution, it shouldn't happen in the first place (and I speak as a victim of rape).

I'm very sorry to hear that. You're right, it shouldn't happen in the first place, but unfortunately, it seems like this is something which ew're likely never to be able to stop completely.

But, the solution is certainly not to force women to endure the rest of their lives with the monster who has performed such a heinous crime against them.

I've heard similar excuses before on this, "oh, it doesn't apply now, it was the way the world was when the bible was written and it was the best outcome for the women at the time." Sorry, I just don't buy this. Anyone who is suggesting that the bible is the word of god and therefore the ultimate source of morality for the world needs to explain why it is written in languages which god knew would die out and require interpretation and why the messages only apply to one period in history? Is it not far more likely that the bible was written by the people who held the power and influence at the time to suit the way they wanted the world to operate?

WiseOldElfIsNick · 15/05/2018 10:38

God gave free will

Do you not see the irony in this statement?

The bible is a book of moral stories not a book of fact and law.

Not all Christians would agree with you on that. But what, pray tell, is the moral of the story about a woman being forced to marry her rapist? And what are the ten commandments if not a set of 'laws'?

PatriarchyPersonified · 15/05/2018 12:14

Martha

So you dont agree with free will? Free will is just that. God gave free will so his people were not mindless slaves. Sometimes people are evil

I have never gotten to grips with the 'free will' argument as a reason why bad things happen in the world. Its logically flawed because it just begs the question, 'why does God care if we have free will or not?'

Arguably if the God of Judeo-Christian religions is real then we don't have free will anyway because God is omnipotent i.e he knows everything that is going to happen. That is only possible if everything is pre-determined.

Free will has no obvious benefits to God, and fundamentally undermines what he himself says he want from the universe he created.

Also using 'free will' as the reason so much evil happens in the world does nothing to explain natural disasters, diseases, famines etc. (so called natural evils)

MarthaArthur · 15/05/2018 12:25

Natural disasters have nothing to do with free will.

I am not God I dont know why he/she/it decided to hand out free will. Maybe its a fun experiement. Must be pretty boring knowing whats happening all the time.

PatriarchyPersonified · 15/05/2018 12:30

Martha

Natural disasters have nothing to do with free will

So God does them then? Why does he choose to kill all those millions of people? Seems pretty evil to me. Certainly not omnibenevolent.

I am not God I dont know why he/she/it decided to hand out free will

Which is fair enough, but then why is 'because of free will' rolled out as the go-to response for why people do bad things then?

MarthaArthur · 15/05/2018 12:39

Why is killing people by God evil though? If you believe in the concept of God and heaven then these people will go to eternal heaven which is a pretty sweet deal imho not evil at all.

Because human beings have souls and feelings and personal liberty. God taught them the rules and its up to them to make of them what they will. Why is free will considered bad when the opposite of free will is being controlled.

MarthaArthur · 15/05/2018 12:41

I was always taught that humans were made in Gods image. That meant spiritual image not literal physical image. So we share emotions with god like love. Anger. Hate and its how we control them. So if we have these emotions its because God does. So why would God not do bad things occassionally? He smited people after all.

PatriarchyPersonified · 15/05/2018 12:46

Martha

Why is killing people by God evil though?

Wow.

If you believe in the concept of God and heaven then these people will go to eternal heaven

What if you don't? Because if you don't (and there is no reason to) then its just really, really bad.

why would God not do bad things occassionally

Because a fundamental christian characteristic of God is that he is omnibenevolent. If he 'does bad things' he is by definition (at least to a christian) not God.

MarthaArthur · 15/05/2018 12:55

If theres a god and heaven and you are a good person then you go there. Humans are after all Gods possesion.
Not every christian sect believes he is omnibenevolent. The bible states the wrath of God and smiting people theresfore by very definition hw is not omnibenevolent. He is omnipotent and sees all.

WiseOldElfIsNick · 15/05/2018 13:31

Why is killing people by God evil though? If you believe in the concept of God and heaven then these people will go to eternal heaven which is a pretty sweet deal imho not evil at all.

If theres a god and heaven and you are a good person then you go there.

These two statements cannot both be true. You cannot have a concept of a god who sends all humans to heaven and also a god who sends only those humans who are good to heaven.

In any case, how do we know what god considers to be good? Certainly there are many things in the bible which are almost universally considered by human-kind to be immoral and wrong. Does that mean we are wrong? Or does it mean that we are more moral beings than god?

And how do you even know that you are appeasing the right god? What if the Hindu gods are actually the real ones and you've spent your entire life not performing the required Hindu rituals and practices which you need in order to please them?

MarthaArthur · 15/05/2018 13:34

Then by divine law you are still following the rules set out to live a moral life.

If talking about the christian god and concept of heaven and hell why would anyone care if an evil person destined to hell dies? To be destined to hell they have caused much suffering to other humans. If they are good and try to live a good life then they are destined for heaven which is better than earth.

Fucketynamechanged · 15/05/2018 13:39

I think people forget choose to deliberately avoid what's clear that although the text says that we are made in God's image... he is in fact very much made in ours.

I'm an ex fundamentalist Christian btw - so very familiar with the whole personal relationship with God idea, and yes - I would say I had would stay I still had but different thread altogether a relationship with the divine. But you can see as you read the bible how God evolves based on mans moral evolution. At the beginning he just throws away sinners, at the end he's saving them and redeeming them.

Whether God exists or not is irrelevant when making the point that the biblical God or gods, but again a different thread is made in the image of man. If in fact that God is real - there's no way he's confined to the text we now know as the bible. Which incidentally has also evolved with stories that were never in it to begin with finding their way in to the form we now know as the bible.

MarthaArthur · 15/05/2018 13:48

fucketynamechanged thats a very good point and exactly why in the sect i grew up in we were taught the bible was a book of morals written by man. Mistakes and true historical events were recorded in the bible but at the end of the day it was written by men in the time period they lived in.

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