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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

When did Jesus actually die?

425 replies

PoloPrincess · 05/03/2018 17:30

Can someone point me in the right direction?
We know that Jesus was crucified on Good Friday and he rose from the dead on Easter Sunday.
Then what happened? When and how did he finally die?

OP posts:
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DioneTheDiabolist · 08/03/2018 17:40

I was not lying. By ommission or otherwise. I am not a Christian. And just for clarity, before I claimed to be a Christian who did not believe in the divinity of Jesus, I was an atheist.

You have accused me of asking superficially naive questions. I don't. I ask questions. This is because my line of work involves people and their beliefs. I am interested in individual's beliefs, how they were formed, are maintained and their purpose.

You have stated a number of beliefs about yourself, one was that you like/don't mind being challenged on your beliefs. Given your responses on this thread, I'm not convinced that this is true.

I assume the wee box with X in it that appears on your posts is an emoticon of some sort that does not appear on my screen. What is it?

53rdWay · 08/03/2018 18:01

I used to be an atheist, should I have confessed to that earlier? Does it mean I'm secretly an atheist now? Confused

Zippyboo2 · 08/03/2018 18:17

Jellymaker excellently put! Smile

PoloPrincess · 08/03/2018 18:23

jellymaker thank you for your kind words. That means a lot to me. x

OP posts:
OyO · 08/03/2018 18:25

I got to page 4 before I had to stop reading this thread due to the amount of facepalm emojis

Jason118 · 08/03/2018 18:48

But Jellymakers comments make me feel ill - to me it comes over as deluded ramblings bordering on mental illness. I'm sure Jelly is happy with the beliefs he/she holds and good luck to him/her. To me though it's weird.

DioneTheDiabolist · 08/03/2018 19:00

But Jellymakers comments make me feel ill
This is quite an extreme reaction to someone who believes differently to you Jason.

DioneTheDiabolist · 08/03/2018 19:06

Oops, posted too soon. Blush

Do you experience it around all those who believe differently to you? When did it begin? How does this feeling of illness present (headache/dizziness/nausea)? When did it start?

Jason118 · 08/03/2018 19:07

A slight sickness feeling yes, and immense sorrow. But each to their own.

DioneTheDiabolist · 08/03/2018 19:09

Do you enjoy the feeling?

Mishappening · 08/03/2018 19:10

There are folk who believe he didn't - honestly.

Jason118 · 08/03/2018 19:10

Who on earth would enjoy feeling ill?

DioneTheDiabolist · 08/03/2018 19:16

I only ask because I have AS'd your posts and most of them are on threads about religion and spirituality. You say that reading such things make you feel ill, yet instead of avoiding them you seem to actively seeking them out. Why would you choose to engage in discussions on the internet when it makes you feel ill and they are easily avoided?

Vitalogy · 08/03/2018 19:17

Who on earth would enjoy feeling ill? The ego enjoys it.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 09/03/2018 20:51

Dawkins very clearly said that an individual(s) called Jesus 'may' have existed and its not a very important question and a waste of time debating it. In essence he concedes the point because its an irrelevant one and can't be proven either way.

The real question is did a supernatural/christian Jesus exist, and the answer to that is obvious. If Jesus is an immortal god then he didn't die because he is immortal, he just pretended to do so for show. Or he was a mortal god and did die, only to be resurrected by himself, which is an oxymoron because if he was dead how could he do anything?

So either jesus was lying about dying or he is a paradox that couldn't have happened or he is something different than what is described in the bible, aka not real.

vdbfamily · 09/03/2018 22:22

Patriarchy....if you wrote about someone in the 1940's that there was no evidence that they existed other than your word, but amazingly a very high percentage of peoples in the world claimed to follow this person and worship them, then I would think some credence might be given to your claim that they existed!

PatriarchyPersonified · 09/03/2018 22:52

vdb

At the time the gospels were supposedly written, hardly anyone followed or worshipped Jesus. That's one of the points people have made.

If he was as miraculous and popular as the Bible claims, why did nobody write about him until over a generation after he supposedly died? (And miraculously rose from the dead, although no contemporary writers thought to make a note of that either)

I mean, according to Matthew, it wasn't just Jesus who rose from the dead:

Many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised

You'd think the dead walking the streets of Jerusalem would have made into someone's writings other than a random Christian years after the fact, but hey, what do I know?

Walkingdeadfangirl · 09/03/2018 23:10

if you wrote about someone in the 1940's
Oh please, people make up fictional characters all the time and give a few years and it blossoms into a religion, a following or a belief it was/is real. You dont even have to go back to the 40's, plenty of it happening within our lifetime right now. Give it a few more years and people will be deifying Harry Potter/lizard men in human skins/monsters under the sea/Illuminati/aliens/the force ... oh wait they already are!

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/03/2018 00:22

but hey, what do I know?

Not a lot it would seem.

PatriarchyPersonified · 10/03/2018 06:48

Dione

Still not adding much to this debate Dione.

As a former regular church attending Christian, what's your position on the reliability of scripture as primary evidence?

Any thoughts on the alternative 'gospels' and the early churches decision to pretend they don't exist because they either completely contradict the others or have Jesus doing ridiculous things (killing his childhood friends in a huff then resurrecting them for example)? The problems this raises for the reliability of the gospels they did 'cherry pick' into the Bible is obvious.

Any thoughts or just more 'questions'?

DioneTheDiabolist · 10/03/2018 09:30

More questions probably.

53rdWay · 10/03/2018 09:57

I am a current church attending Christian, if that helps? You have accused me of lying and sockpuppeting earlier, but hey, bygones...

what's your position on the reliability of scripture as primary evidence?

It’s unclear what you’re asking here: which ‘scripture’, evidence for what? There are books of the Bible that are good primary evidence for the developing beliefs and practice for the early church, because that’s what they are, they’re letters from someone telling someones else to among other things stop doing so much of X and start doing more of Y. The Gospels aren’t contemporary journalism, but they too are fairly good evidence for what the early church believed and how different strains of thought were changing and developing. So you can see those different strains in the gospels, based on what the compilers/authors felt was important and what they valued.

Any thoughts on the alternative 'gospels' and the early churches decision to pretend they don't exist

The point at which the Church settled for good (mostly...) on which books go in the canon and which don’t happened several hundred years after the ‘early church’ I’m talking about above, for clarity. Also: they didn’t “pretend they don’t exist”, how can you have big discussions about which writings count and which don’t unless you’re acknowledging they’re all there?

What you’re asking (I’m assuming) is actually “when and why did some of these writings end up in the Bible and some not”, which is a much broader and more interesting question.

Short version of ‘when’: by about AD 200 the Church had roughly developed a core canon, of the four gospels we have as canonical today plus some of Paul’s letters and some of the other books in today’s NT. But the Church was not very centralised at this point, and each region had its own list of canonical writings in addition to that. It wasn’t until much later that the Church developed a single “Bible” as we would recognise it today.

Short version of ‘why’: a combination of religious, political and historical reasoning. So some books got left out because the Church was centralising where it stood theologically and politically, and ditching texts produced according to schools of thought it decided fell outside that (Marcionism, Gnosticism). Or because they’re a collection of sayings rather than a narrative document and that’s not where the Church wanted to go at the time. Or because they’d been lost along the way - it’s likely a written text existed that Matthew and Luke were based on, but we’ve lost that now. We know of a lot of “Gospels” that just don’t exist any more.

If you’re asking about why the Infancy Gospel of Thomas specifically didn’t make it in: probably because it was thought to have been written a fair bit later than the canonical four, and by a Greek author with little knowledge of Judaism, and because it’s very Gnostic and Gnosticism was out by the time the Church was settling on a canon. (It did hang around for a fair while, though, we know some early churches were including that gospel in IIRC the early 2nd century CE.)

If you’re asking “why is the Infancy Gospel of Thomas written the way it is” - search me, Gnosticism was weird. I would suggest that a) the Greek author was more heavily influenced by the Greek pantheon than Jewish tradition, so was talking about the infant Jesus as he would have talked about an infant Greek god or demigod; and b) Gnosticism really liked weird, puzzling material that can only be understood via secret knowledge only available to the initiate.

(I appreciate that this is not what you’re looking for - you want a very simplistic bunch of theists with zero knowledge or nuance saying things like “we know the Bible is true because the Bible says so!”. Apologies for things being more complicated than you were aiming for, I suppose. But complexity is interesting! I really recommend getting into it some time!)

PatriarchyPersonified · 10/03/2018 10:27

53rd

On the contrary, it's good that someone with some actual knowledge has turned up.

Your in depth knowledge of the source material is impressive, but it doesn't get around the fact that what your describing is a picking and choosing of which bits of evidence to allow and which bits to exclude.

Hand waving away some bits and not others by saying (I'm paraphrasing) that they had 'some mad ideas' and the early churches had to settle on one version of something doesn't help your cause I'm afraid.

To the non-believer, they are all mad ideas.

It just comes across as trying to pick the most believeable bits of a bullshit story to take forward in the hope they will be believed. It seems to have worked.

Nobody so far has shown in any way why the 'gospels' that we do accept (or even the ones we don't) are in any way proof of the existence of any particular person. They are all 'hearsay' and written by people strongly motivated to convince others that 'Jesus' was a real person who actually existed.

Hand waving away the complete lack of any un-biased, non Christian sources that even mention Jesus, let alone attribute any miraculous events to him doesn't help your case one bit.

This is the fundamental problem with this entire line of argument (and Christian Theology in general.) It doesn't matter how many different gospel sources you can quote and in how much detail. The underlying issue remains that you are producing biased, second hand sources as fundamental 'proofs'.

That standard of evidence wouldn't meet any actual threshold of evidence we would see as acceptable in any other serious field of study.

53rdWay · 10/03/2018 10:37

Hand waving away some bits and not others by saying (I'm paraphrasing) that they had 'some mad ideas' and the early churches had to settle on one version of something doesn't help your cause I'm afraid.

What do you think my cause is? I'm not trying to convert you; no points I made above rest on metaphysical premises. I'm talking about why the Church made the decisions it did about what to include and what not to. In a similar way, I could talk about why the Quran developed the way it did, although I'm not a Muslim; or I could talk about why the Conservatives have a 1922 Committee, although I'm not a Conservative.

It just comes across as trying to pick the most believeable bits of a bullshit story to take forward in the hope they will be believed.

Not really, I wouldn't say most claims in the Gospels are inherently 'more believable', especially to a 1st century Jewish/Greek/Roman audience. Of course what we view as more/less believable now here will owe a great deal to the philosophical traditions we ourselves have grown up with.

Nobody so far has shown in any way why the 'gospels' that we do accept (or even the ones we don't) are in any way proof of the existence of any particular person.

I haven't tried to. I appreciate you would like me to try to, because that's the argument you want to have, but...

This is the fundamental problem with this entire line of argument (and Christian Theology in general.)

Again with 'this entire line of argument'. Again, I can only apologise for not arguing the stuff you'd like me to argue I suppose?

53rdWay · 10/03/2018 10:57

If you want to know what I personally believe about the evidence for a historical Jesus: I think there likely was such a figure, because of the existence of an early church that followed him, that was growing very shortly after his alleged death, and that is well attested in the kind of sources we'd expect it to be well attested into. I would have said exactly the same when I was an atheist, though: that there likely was a historical figure, who made particular claims, who had followers. None of that implies divinity or any sort of metaphysical anything, in and of itself. (Obviously I do hold beliefs along those lines now, I just don't think they automatically follow from "a person named Jesus existed at roughly this time.")

If what you're saying is "convince me that Jesus existed and was divine using a standard of evidence I would expect to see on Law & Order", then that's not something I can or would wish to do.

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