Is Atheism a religion?

[HarrassedDad]

My DW and I were debating this and thought we would ask all of you! The question stemmed from asking if Atheism is taught at schools during RE lessons (we think it should be).

Its a belief about religion.

No it's not. It's a lack of belief in god(s).

13 years later atheism is still not a religion. It is what it always has been, a lack of belief in god(s).

But if religious people need to tell atheists what they believe in so it makes them feel better about believing in a sky fairae then ... put me down as a neo wicca pagan.

They tend to get annoyed if you tell them that their absence of belief in God is the same as saying they believe (but have not proved) there is no God.

But they're not the same thing. A new born baby has no concept of god, so it neither believes in god or believes that there is no god.

Some atheists seem to prefer to think they dont believe in something. They tend to get annoyed if you tell them that their absence of belief in God is the same as saying they believe (but have not proved) there is no God.

Atheist is the rejection of the claim that a god exists.

Er. That's it.

No belief or faith required.

"I dont believe in God" is underpinned by an alternative belief: "I believe that God does not exist". Only one belief is true but they are both beliefs. You cannot empirically prove God does not exist. I'm using God in the broadest sense to mean an intelligence behind the universe.

I think it takes a massive leap of faith to say sentient life evolved on Earth entirely by chance. And all the wonders of the universe are just random accidents.

Its also very arrogant to believe that all those people throughout history to the present day who have spiritual experiences are just imagining it because you know for certain that they are wrong. I'd call that a belief, not a fact.

Its too big a subject to get into on a forum. Agnosticism makes more sense.

You cannot empirically prove God does not exist.

The burden of proof lies with those making the claim.

Atheism is not a belief.

Not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

"I dont believe in God" is underpinned by an alternative belief: "I believe that God does not exist"

Ummm NO, that is what exists in the head of religious people.
Back in reality "I dont believe in God" is underpinned by the thought that: "I dont know, where is the evidence for that claim".

It really seems to upset religious people that atheists can be so apathetic about religion and beliefs.

Not collecting stamps is not a hobby.

Exactly.

OFF is not a tv channel.
Bald is not a hairstyle
Celibacy is not a sexual technique
Atheism is not a belief.

It's really not hard to grasp.

Not collecting stamps is not a hobby
Collecting stamps is an action not a belief so doesn't have an opposite belief.

Baldnes? This is a physical attribute. Not a belief.

In fact none of that list refers to belief. You can observe a TV being off or a person being bald.

"I dont believe in God" is underpinned by the thought that: "I dont know, where is the evidence for that claim". (Whereupon the underlying belief is that .. ergo you dont believe in God).

I do get the secular worldview that insists that historically observable facts and scientifically verifiable phenomena are the only acceptable evidence. It does result in a very narrow view. I hope you will agree that people, our world and the universe are infinitely complex. I get that you dont think theres more to it than meets the eye. I do. Different beliefs.

Also I sympathise with being apathetic about religious belief. Or in my case in the past just rarely thinking about it and certainly never deeply. It doesnt seem as if evangelical atheists on mumsnet are apathetic about religious related beliefs, more that you are moved to refute religious beliefs. I respect you have your own belief system. I dont understand why its so hard to see that its just that it is just a belief.

Collecting stamps is an action not a belief so doesn't have an opposite belief
And yet theists believe people who dont collect stamps are participating in a hobby despite evidence to the contrary.

Baldnes? This is a physical attribute. Not a belief.
And yet theists believe people who are bald have a hairstyle despite evidence to the contrary.

You can observe a TV being off
And yet theists believe people who turn their TV off are still watching content on it, despite evidence to the contrary.

you dont believe in God
And yet theists believe atheists (with no belief in any god) have a collective set of beliefs, are part of a religion involving devotional & ritual observances and have a common moral code governing the conduct of human affairs despite evidence to the contrary.

(Whereupon the underlying belief is that .. ergo you dont believe in God) Correct, and that is the sum total of what an atheist is, they have nothing else in common. As an atheist I don't have enough confidence in the 'evidence' supporting the idea their is a god, you dont get to add in the false statement that I actually 'believe' their is no god, because I dont.

facts and scientifically verifiable phenomena are the only acceptable evidence What other types of evidence is their, anecdotes?

It does result in a very narrow view also known as facts.

I hope you will agree that people, our world and the universe are infinitely complex Our Universe is complex and we are doing a pretty dam good job of understanding it. Not sure why you have added in 'infinitely', what does that even mean?

I get that you dont think theres more to it than meets the eye
Again what does that even mean and what does it have to do with atheism?

It doesnt seem as if evangelical atheists
How can an atheist be in keeping with the gospel and its teachings, what a weird thing to describe.

I respect you have your own belief system
Well obviously you dont because you keep pushing a belief system on people who dont actually have a belief system/religion. Where is the respect? Its actually quite offensive.

I wouldnt go getting offended over religion threads. I read your sky fairy comments above and thought best to rise above it. I will apologise that using the term evangelical ("zealous in advocating or supporting a particular cause") atheists is a bit incendiary given the religious connotation of the word.

Im going to have to ignore your first 4 paragraphs. Im sure you think you have a point but it just reads like misdirection and making stuff up (whoever said atheists have religious practices, not me, I specifically said in answer to the OP that its not a religion).

Its a bit of an entrenched position. Im just saying "i have no belief in God" equates to "I believe there is no God". Why is that contentious?

This even comes up on Wikipedia:

"Atheismis, in the broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence of deities. ... In an even narrower sense,atheismis specifically the position that there are no deities."

Please note I read "position" as view, belief, a subjective thought, way of thinking, philosophy. If you have a different take on it then by all means knock yourself out. Im sure you will want to get a word in again.

The secular way of seeing will only admit the ordinary world. What can be seen with the eye. The religious world view admits more than this. To take it to something I hope you will understand: you cant measure love for example. How do we know it exists? Anecdote? You just dismissed that. You need facts, something you can see on a screen or in a test tube maybe? A strictly scientific view may say its a chemical reaction / hormonal for particular purpose. Is this all it is? Or is it more than that? Ah but many people experience love. Why is that OK (maybe it isnt to you, which would be bleak) but you deny people can experience anything beyond the normal everyday? Im not confining this to God. There's lots of people claiming spiritual experiences out there. They must all be making it up.

Still its interesting. I'm engaged because I had just this semantic debate with friends. I do have one Atheist friend who thinks that they dont have a belief, the other Atheists thought it was a belief. It goes to show like any thoughts on God then there are many ways if thinking about it and youre never going to get consensus.

Consider the following two statements.

A. I believe there is no God.
B. I do not believe there is a God.

Statements A and B both come from atheists but have a subtly different meaning. An atheist who states A must hold to lack of belief B too, but the converse is not true, that is, a person who states B does not necessarily hold to belief A.

B, without A, is the most common form of atheism and involves a lack of belief. It cannot be the basis of a religion, in my opinion, as religion needs an active belief in something that cannot be proven. On the other hand, A, and B by implication, involves the unproven belief that there is no God. This particular subset of atheism could be viewed as a religion.

Im just saying "i have no belief in God" equates to "I believe there is no God". Why is that contentious?
Its not 'contentious', its just wrong. Of course you can find an atheist that also believes their is no god, but you can equally find christians that also believe their is no god. The only thing atheists have in common is that they dont have confidence in the evidence of a diety existing (therefore they have no belief in any deity existing).

I dont get why you think you know what atheists believe better than any atheist does.

This even comes up on Wikipedia

Wikipedia is a reasonable source but it is not a definitive source. If I found something that someone on wikipedia said 'christians' believe, does that mean all christians believe it? The best way to find out what people believe is to ask them. And no atheists on here have said that their atheism means they believe their is no god.
FYI wikipedia says about atheism is in its broadest sense, an absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is a rejection of the belief that any deities exist. And in an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. So you are taking a minority position and trying to turn it into a majority belief.

"position", view, belief whilst similar are not the same thing.

The secular way of seeing will only admit the ordinary world
aka Only believing things that you can have confidence that the evidence shows has a high probability of being true.

The religious world view admits more than this
I agree, religious people do say they believe things they have no evidence to demonstrate is true. I accept they believe it, I just cant join them without good reason.

you cant measure love for example I guess we agree to disagree, you can measure love in many ways. eg Just have a read around the various forums of MN and you will find many examples that demonstrates if a person loves you or not.

Is this all it is? Or is it more than that? For me love is a feeling, it is demonstrated by an action. Not sure how that is in anyway connected to believing in a god.

You need facts No, I need confidence in the evidence. I have confidence in someone who treats me with respect, lies in bed with me every night, doesn't sleep with other men, buys me gifts, shares my life etc etc
I do not have confidence in someone who never talks to me, never meets me, never buys me gifts, doesn't share my life ...

On a separate note. I have a friend who is a christian minister, their husband works for a company that makes missiles. We recently had a conversation and he explained that god helps him make better guidance systems so their is less collateral damage. Isn't god great at saving lives. I literally did not know what to say. I mean, WTF?

If you simply define 'god' as 'an intelligence behind the universe', what was god doing before they created the universe? What created god? Evidently, this universe isn't the first to exist and as far as we can tell, won't be the last either, so did god create all of these as well? When one universe implodes does it take god with it, if not, why not? Are there multiple universes? If so, why is god bothering to creating multiples, multiple dimensions? This universe is still expanding, so what's it expanding into? If the answer to that is 'nothing', was the 'nothing' also created by god?

You're correct, you can't empirically disprove the existence of a practically undefined god, but to me, it's plainly ridiculous to suggest that there's some sort of intelligent design to the cosmos, simply because of how utterly lacking in logic, reason, or in fact, 'intelligent design' it is. If this is all being done my some omnipotent presence, then they're a complete and utter cowboy I wouldn't trust to mow my lawn without making a colossal arse of it.

Atheism is a school to thought denying the existence of god and higher consciousness.

Atheism is a school to thought denying the existence of god and higher consciousness.

No it isn't. Nothing to do with " higher consciousness".

It is
disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.

Agree, I can understand not believing in god or godesses however disbelief in higher consciousness is usually disputable and questionable. That said many philosophies welcome and accept scepticism and cynicism as that is considered the first step in exploring the existence of higher consciousness.

Surprised to see people saying that atheists "believe". If we went around believing things we could easily add on a few dozen gods as well.

It is the sensible lack of belief due to there being zero evidence for any god.