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Philosophy/religion

Join our Philosophy forum to discuss religion and spirituality.

Jewish people

103 replies

salsamummy · 15/08/2017 23:11

I work in a leisure centre and was told I had to leave asap as a group of Jewish young men had hired the whole centre and as a woman I couldn't stay. The receptionist was told she couldn't move from the reception area whilst they were swimming. Can you explain why? I haven't seen any or know of any Jewish people in this area so obviously just visiting .

OP posts:
histinyhandsarefrozen · 20/08/2017 10:18

You said Ollie is right. Ollie is wrong.

She posted an example of why Judaism is misogynistic which is not true.

The reason Orthodox Jews don't shake hands with women is NOT about periods.

If you're going to argue it's misogynistic (fair enough) get your facts straight.

DubaiismyBlackpool · 20/08/2017 10:27

Not wanted to de-rail or hijack the thread, but I think it's refreshing to find a religion where a man is expected to control himself. In so many the onus is on the females.

StepAwayFromCake · 20/08/2017 11:03

Not just expected to control himself, Dubai, but to pleasure his wife. It is part of a Jewish man's marital duty to ensure that his wife enjoys sex, and that they make love as often as she wants.

There's no denying, though, that Orthodox Judaism, in all its forms, has a degree of misogynism, because the traditions become entrenched. Women "don't have to" becomes "women don't ", which eventually becomes so established the adherents think "women must not/cannot".

The same is true for all orthodoxy, for all religions.

Bobbiepin · 20/08/2017 11:15

@dowager would your opinion differ if all men were told to leave for a women's only class? That'll happen just as regularly. Without the understanding of why it is important its easy to see why this comes across as sexist but I'm sure there wouldn't be this much discord if the men were asked to leave. Aside from that, the religion continues to evolve. For example, in a Jewish marriage contract, the duties of the husband towards the wife are laid out. One of them (as @dubai mentions) is sex. Now traditionally if a man fails to fulfil these duties a woman would have to ask for a divorce, she would not be able to divorce her husband. This inevitably caused problems. Now, couples are actively advised by their rabbis prior to marriage to sign a pre nup stating that the man cannot refuse his wife a divorce should she ask for it. Its seen as a mark of trust and repsect that the man signs that.

@dubai the Haredi Jews are notorious for being very insular and sometimes less respectful towards "outsiders". I can explain their reasoning to some extent but I don't agree with rudeness.

bluedemilune · 20/08/2017 11:41

Yes I find that refreshing as well. Certainly in most muslim cultures and sects the onus is on women not men. Only notable exception are the touraeg muslims of the sahara where the men veil and practise extreme modesty with women but the tourag women dont cover.

Also found it interesting that women are not bound by timed prayers. The amount of guilt I carry around because I cant make my prayers in on time is 90per cent of my angst. And it is because of mothering most of the time. Thats a very merciful exception in judaism. I always thought judaism was stricter.

bluedemilune · 20/08/2017 11:44

(Women "don't have to" becomes "women don't ", which eventually becomes so established the adherents think "women must not/cannot".

Yes thats well put. exactly the issue about womens prayer space in mosques.)

ollieplimsoles · 20/08/2017 13:20

I only know Chabad and Modern Orthodox, but both those groups will certainly look at and chat to women.*

Will they? Oh how gracious of them.

That's right Ollie, pick the one thing that fits in with your ideals and beliefs no matter how true it is and spout a little more hate. What's next? The Muslims are all terrorists? We're all waiting with baited breath for your superior knowledge.

Well since you don't know what my 'beliefs' are, the first bit is pointless. The 'no matter how true it is and spout a bit more hate' bit is laughable and almost argument ad absurdum. Since every follower of a faith living by a holy book is guilty of doing exactly this.

I think you're in the wrong topic ollie - have some respect

Dangerous way to think- why should a potentially harmful belief or practice by worthy of respect?

She posted an example of why Judaism is misogynistic which is not true.

Oh did I? Misogynistic was your word, not mine. I pointed out (rightly) that the word 'unclean' used to describe a women having a period, fosters a belief that a normal biological process is something to be ashamed of. I never said 'Judiasm is misogynistic.

Bobbiepin · 20/08/2017 14:07

You're basing your argument on a word that we've discussed and corrected. Therefore your point is incorrect.

I would imagine your beliefs centre around atheism and the concept that religion is wrong. Please, correct me if I'm not right.

Finally, mass generalisations about everyone that follow religion spouting hate because they follow a holy book is a little stereotypical don't you think? Everyone religious is hateful just isn't true. I will agree that too many wars have started and too much blood has been spilled over religion but don't tar everyone with that same brush.

Tell me what religion the protesters in Charlottesville are following. Hate and religion are not mutually exclusive. Hate and inflexibility of thought are.

ollieplimsoles · 20/08/2017 14:52

You're basing your argument on a word that we've discussed and corrected. Therefore your point is incorrect.

No it isnt. You just dont understand the point.

I would imagine your beliefs centre around atheism and the concept that religion is wrong. Please, correct me if I'm not right.

Atheism is not a 'belief' its the lack of belief in a deity. I dont believe in any god because as yet, i havent seen sufficient evidence one exists. Not all atheists believe religions are bad. I dislike some areas of religious doctrine but would not be so general to say all religion is just 'bad'

Finally, mass generalisations about everyone that follow religion spouting hate because they follow a holy book is a little stereotypical don't you think?

The 'spouting hate' was yours. I was pointing out how the 'pick one thing that fits your ideal no matter how true it is' part is something every follower of a holy book does- cherry pick the parts you like and ignore the dodgy stuff.

lizzieoak · 20/08/2017 15:58

Ollie, who peed on your chips?

I wasn't saying that some Orthodox men deign to chat to women, just that they do (and the ones I know are friendly and delightful).

Why be so miserable about it. If I said your atheist or agnostic neighbour had no problem chatting to women would you be similarly confrontational?

histinyhandsarefrozen · 20/08/2017 16:15

Orthodox Jews, they would not shake hands with a woman in case she was having her period, which would be seen as "unclean"

So you've been told clearly that this is untrue/wrong. But hey who cares about whether it's true or not! It's still:

Another lovely example of how religious doctrine teaches that women are just pieces of shit, and perfectly normal biological facts are something to be ashamed of.

Wow. Evidence means nothing to you, does it.

SoPassRemarkable · 20/08/2017 16:27

I read in the paper about a flight being delayed once because the Jewish male passengers wouldn't sit next to women so everyone had to shuffle about.

Also that photo of a Jewish man on a plane in a clear, giant plastic bag. Think that was to do with not being allowed to fly over graveyards.....but if you're in a plastic bag it doesn't count!

Makes me laugh about the wires in areas of North London to extend the home, so you can still push a buggy round the streets, etc.

My oven is Jewish!

histinyhandsarefrozen · 20/08/2017 16:36

Eh?

Whywonttheyletmeusemyusername · 20/08/2017 17:12

ollie, why is it "potentially harmful" ? Hence my post following bobbiepins, the word is understanding. The only potential harm regarding Judaism is what Jews face on a regular basis - anti semitism

SoPassRemarkable · 20/08/2017 17:32

Eh to what?

pinkmagic1 · 20/08/2017 19:00

What about wires and photos of men in plastic bags? Intrigued now.

ollieplimsoles · 20/08/2017 19:05

lizzie et al

I have had my chips totally pee'd on today. Ignore me

StepAwayFromCake · 20/08/2017 20:45

I read in the paper about a flight being delayed once because the Jewish male passengers wouldn't sit next to women so everyone had to shuffle about.

That was on an ELAL plane. It was ruled discriminatory and illegal. It was nothing to do with true Judaism, but the result of 'men shouldn't touch unrelated women' evolving into 'women should be moved so as not to disturb men' - ie the misogyny that evolved. The cabin crew, as many people do, found it easier to bully the quieter 'weaker' person, than to stand up to the bully (United Airlines?)

the wires in areas of North London to extend the home, so you can still push a buggy round the streets, etc.

The rules for observing the day of rest on the Sabbath forbid various forms of work, including carrying or pushing things in public places. In those days, communities were much smaller, and separate households less distinct from each other, so you could consider that you didn't pass through truly public spaces on your way from home to synagogue. Particularly if you lived in a walled town. The wire is a symbolic wall, defining a communal area, allowing strictly observant Jews to, say, push a buggy within that zone on the Sabbath.

Also that photo of a Jewish man on a plane in a clear, giant plastic bag. Think that was to do with not being allowed to fly over graveyards.....but if you're in a plastic bag it doesn't count!

No idea what you are talking about. Sounds like complete nonsense to me, but then some of the ways the ultra-Orthodox come up with to cope with the realities of modern times sound complete nonsense to me. (See above!)

SoPassRemarkable · 20/08/2017 20:53

ervu

Bobbiepin · 20/08/2017 22:25

@stepawayfromcake you explained that perfectly, especially the eruv line which @sopass mentioned.

The plastic bag thing was actually a tactic to avoid the whole shifting seats palava. If he couldn't touch a woman who may happen to sit next to him then no one had to move. Frankly all Jews I know who read the story thought it was batshit but still, each to their own.

The thing that gets me is that the vast majority of Jews in the UK are so well integrated that you don't know we are Jewish, however we are being grouped with the opinions related to those who are more segregated. All the Haredim I know are wonderful, respectful, pious people but the whole community is not that way and I find it unfair that I choose to live my life differently but are still judged the same.

samG76 · 20/08/2017 23:44

Bobbie - plastic bag was connected with graveyards. The chap was a cohen and took a pretty extreme position that he would be contaminated by the dead bodies in the cemetery when flying over them. Very few would agree with him, but nothing to do with misogyny.

As for the eruv, it's a legal fiction, of course, but nothing wrong with that. It doesn't do any harm. All legal systems need them in order to operate smoothly when difficult situations arise. Whenever a new eruv is proposed loads of people complain about what a hugely detrimental effect it will have, and after a week everyone has forgotten all about it, except for those who use it.....

MiniTheMinx · 21/08/2017 07:24

Yesterday my DP was spat at by a Haredi woman on the train.

The train was packed. There was a large group of orthodox, and a group of people whispering and staring at them. DP sat down next to a Jewish man. The children were excited and stared talking to DP about their day out. DP being as he is spoke back. The mother stood up said something in Yiddish and then spat. When he got up to get off the train, she again cursed in Yiddish and spat at him.

He cried when he got home. I tried to see all sides and I tried to explain what may have been her motivation, but it's inexcusable. I'm Jewish. I'm not observant but it's apparently fairly obvious I'm told. He said he felt a moral indignation that people were hostile towards them. I'm sure on reflection he won't in future.

bullyingadvice2017 · 21/08/2017 10:50

That is disgusting that he got spat at. On public transport surely folk can sit wherever they want and should be able to without any chance of that happening. Imagine if a drunk football thug did that!

StepAwayFromCake · 21/08/2017 11:11

That doesn't make sense, Mini.

If the Orthodox woman had any issues with your dh speaking to her children, she would have told her children off first, to stop them interacting with him.

If she was that strict, she would not have spoken to your dh, though a man from her party would have done so.

If the family were that strict, the children would not have spoken to an 'outsider'.

If she wanted to tell your dh off, she would almost certainly have done so in English. The likelihood of her dc being able to speak fluent English, and her not being able to do so, is vanishingly small.

How do you know she was 'cursing'?

As for the spitting, was it actual expectoration, or symbolic?

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