So confused.

[McBounty]

Hi

I am just going to get stuck in and explain how I am currently feeling.

I have recently just found Jesus.
I think.

I was invited to my very first Cell meeting just under a year ago.
I decided to go to a few and I found it overwhelming and not for me. I did however, find it very peaceful.

If you're unsure about what a cell group is, it's a group of women (or men) and we meet at a leaders home. The leader spends an hour reading from the Bible, listening to Christian music and praying. Then we eat snacks and socialise.

After about 5 visits, I stopped going. I left all of the ladies that attended and had become friends, behind.

I thought it might be a good time to tell you all, I was a very strong atheist.

I decided recently to go back to a cell group. I feel like, I need to give this a chance. I need to believe in Jesus and God's plan. I have started attending Cell groups again and I even went to my first Church service on Sunday. I cried and I found it amazing.

I have been praying. I have been asking Jesus to forgive me. I want to become a faithful Christian, but I am scared. I still have my doubts.

I wish I didn't, but I do. I want this so so bad. I have started getting excited knowing I am going to see the Cell ladies again at Cell. They have all become amazing friends.
I am excited to attend Church again. I listen to Christian music in my spare time now also, I love it.

I am confused. Just so confused.
I don't even know what to ask.

As a bit of background, I, as most people, used to accept the "received wisdom" that of course he existed, that it was a fact and all proven. Then, on another forum, someone stated "it is a fact that he existed", and I decided to find those "facts". As it happens, there aren't any.

It is still the "received wisdom" that he existed, but that, in part, is due to the priesthood repeating that it was "fact" for thousands of years, and anyone attempting to contradict being tortured or their families cut off. Not something you would think would be necessary if it was provable fact.

Also, given that the bible was written over a long period, and edited well into the fourth century CE, I think that there can be some reasonable doubt about the accuracy of the "predictions", yes.

Anyway, OP, as I say, I suggest you read the whole of the bible yourself, without using one of the many sources designed to tell you what to think about it. If you want to read those afterwards, that is fine, but the reason Christians want you to use these sources is because they don't trust the source material not to offend without someone desperately trying to add "context" to "explain" all the bad stuff away.

I must be reading a completely different thread because I don't see where every Christian is saying read selective material. For my part I said to start with a gospel as ultimately Christ's life, atonement, death and resurrection are the keystone of Christianity. Not mosaic law from earlier books, not the Pauline letters that have no context without knowing about the man Jesus Christ.

Thank you all for replying to my post. Truly.

It was an interesting read. 😊

I have started to read the Bible. I do believe it's important.

My faith in Jesus is growing more and more every single day.

I have been a hateful atheist my whole life. Since I repent in Church and have started to pray, I feel a million times better. I feel closer to him. I can't actually describe how I feel. It's almost unbelievable, but it's happening to me and it's very much there.

This isn't just about my friends and my socialising anymore. I think at first, partly it may have been, but not anymore. It's about God.

I

What is a hateful atheist?

Not sure, but apparently...

McBounty that's great. I've always found it helpful to use a bible reading guide or a daily readings book. This helps you read through a book of the Bible with notes to think about.

Outwiththecrowd - not really true though is it.

Apparently the only way to salvation and eternal life is accepting christ as saviour.
So you can be as kind an atheist as you like, but you're still not going to cut it at the pearly gates.
You can be a mass murderer but if you repent and swallow the bread in time than all is good- bingo, open gates.

I am not so concerned about the truth of the statement on the church sign in an absolute sense.

If there is some sort of entity to which the label God might be attached, it's unlikely that such an entity would create a popularity list ranking human beings according to moral probity. An afterlife, the nature of which is predicated on an individual’s beliefs - or the lack thereof - during life, is equally unlikely.

However, I contend that what other people believe about their God's thoughts and intentions matters. It matters because people who believe their God is judgemental of those subscribing to different belief systems or ideologies may very well not have a good opinion of those belief-outsiders themselves.

I would prefer to live in a society in which Christians drifted from doctrinal purity and acknowledged the capacity for good in atheists – and those of other non-Christian beliefs - without the need for conversion.

So I welcome the sign - and it is a real sign outside a church - as signalling that some Christians are willing to challenge the 'Christians good/non-Christians bad' credo of traditional Christianity.

Albeit I've been a member of my church for 14 years, I explored various ones prior to that and I have never once encountered a "me good, you bad" attitude. Everyone is imperfect, every single one of us. :s

Perhaps brevity of expression led to ambiguity. The view I have come across is the following:

Believers are sinful - but improving as good works follow faith.

Non-believers are sinful – and remain wedded to the pursuit of worldly pleasures.

From this perspective a ‘good atheist’ would be an oxymoron.

Strange OutwiththeOutcrowd, in my experience the topic has always revolved around Jesus words where He said, (and I paraphrase) "not every one saying to me 'Lord, Lord' will get to heaven, but the one who is doing the will of My Father will find a heavenly reward".

Basically the churchgoer who pays lip service but does nothing is under greater condemnation; whereas the atheist/agnostic/AN Other who actually goes out and does good for the human family will receive a great reward. The churchgoer in this scenario is by far the more repugnant (can't think of a better word) because they know what they should be doing and, more importantly, why they should be doing it compared with the most self-indulgent atheist who still aids their fellow men (and women!)

Hello OP, how are you getting on?

I just want to echo Lumpy's posts about faith and doubt. I don't think faith can be authentic and solid unless doubt is allowed room for consideration. Doubt is important because without it we are not allowing ourselves to be human and use the reason given us - faith is faith because of doubt.
Lovely that you're exploring all of this and that you've found something helpful in your church and cell group. Are they welcoming and open to questions? I cry in church a lot - when God does stuff in us it often comes out in tears, because God touches our emotions. It's a good thing.

Are you asking whether you should continue at this church and group? I suppose we'd need to hear more about them so we can tell whether they are helpful and loving to you. Churches can vary wildly. I agree with the advice about reading the gospels first, Jesus is the very centre of what scripture is about and leads to and from, and Christian faith is founded on Jesus so it makes sense to get to know him a bit.

Quite like that sign, Out

… the churchgoer who pays lip service but does nothing is under greater condemnation …. The churchgoer in this scenario is by far the more repugnant (can't think of a better word) because they know what they should be doing

Reread the above and exchange the word ‘churchgoer’ with ‘white person’ and see how it sounds.

Would it not be fairer to have the same expectations of all – regardless of beliefs held - as far as treating your fellow citizen well goes? So no holding a Christian to higher account since it implies a greater capacity for/understanding of moral behaviour?

Imagine you are a teacher in a school. You have Christian students, students who belong to other religious groups and student who have no religion.

If a Christian student behaves badly, are you going to feel that they ought to know better than the rest and therefore have higher standards of morality for them? That would be a discriminatory. The more respectful view would be to have the same high expectations of all your students, assuming the possibly confounding factor of special needs is not coming into play.

I agree that people - all people not just Christians - can find much that is laudable in the teachings of Jesus.

MHD I am glad to hear you like the sign. It's a bit 'naughty' but I feel the 'naughtiness' is for a good cause and therefore acceptable.

It's OK to have doubts. The very definition of faith is "strong belief based on spiritual conviction rather than proof".

Huge update since I first wrote this post.

I have decided to go and be baptized in our church service tomorrow.

I've had a very big encounter this week and feel like my doubts have gone completely. I feel so close to Jesus. I feel like this is my next step and it feels overwhelming the right thing to do for me right now.

My encounter this week has changed my world. I feel like it was God's way of showing me that he was there.

I can't shake it and I want to be as close to him as possible. When I attend Church, I feel like I am home. He makes me feel like I am home.

I have read so much more of the Bible at this point and learnt so much more in our cell groups and church.

Thank you all so much for your responses.

Wish me luck.

That's lovely, McBounty. I pray your baptism is profound and wonderful. I'm so pleased you've encountered God so deeply. There's nothing like it, is there.

All the best.

There really isn't.

I have never felt so content.

Congratulations McBounty!

Why are you trying to force yourself to believe in something? You either do or you don't.

Why do you feel you 'want to believe' ?

Oh ignore that last I didn't see your update before I posted.

My encounter this week has changed my world. I feel like it was God's way of showing me that he was there.

Would you mind sharing what happened if you are comfortable doing so?

"I have been a hateful atheist my whole life"

Just be wary of any group that encourages you to think of yourself or other people in these terms.

OutwiththeOutCrowd there seems to have been some misunderstanding here and your analogy doesn't fit my meaning in any way, shape or form. A churchgoer has obligations to their fellow man and to their God imposed upon them by their church doctrines that are simply not obligations to the world. Depending on the faith involved, my own for example, I would be considered sinful (in the sense of disobeying God) for not praying, not reading scriptures, (they would be sins of omission) or smoking (a sin of commission). Those things aren't a problem for anyone who isn't a member because they haven't entered into a commitment to do or not do those things.

Your analogy of the white man would fit if I was talking about things like murder, but I was referring to sins that are really specific to believers. Xxx

…the churchgoer who pays lip service but does nothing is under greater condemnation; whereas the atheist/agnostic/AN Other who actually goes out and does good for the human family will receive a great reward…

So, just for clarity, in the above ‘does nothing’ and ‘does good’ are not referring to the same kind of activities. In the case of the churchgoer you are referring to God-oriented – first half of the 10 commandments territory - activities whereas in the case of the atheist, as is clear in the text, you are referring to Man-oriented – second half of the 10 commandments territory - activities.

What you are not saying, and this is where I misunderstood, is that your God would expect a higher standard of Man-oriented moral behavior from Christians than from atheists. The expectation is as high, or low, for both.

So, for example, you could be in church with your head down and eyes closed thinking about what you're going to cook for tea. That's a believer-specific sin. God would be more miffed at a Christian doing this than an atheist.

On the other hand when it comes to simply being kind to your fellow man, God would have similar expectations of Christians and atheists and would be no more surprised to see kindness in one group than the other.

Why would God be miffed by a believer thinking about what to cook for tea while they're at church?